XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: joedoe3@gmail.com   
      
   Stan Brown schrieb am 03/02/2013 03:04 PM:   
   > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:48:16 +0000 (UTC), Steuard Jensen wrote:   
   >> Once the Black   
   >> Gate opened and battle was joined, it was inevitably a "normal" battle   
   >> with no Ring influence. At what point (if ever) would Sauron become   
   >> suspicious that the Ring wasn't there to be used at all? If Sauron   
   >> thought that Aragorn had already used the Ring to influence the   
   >> outcome at Minas Tirith (*Did* he? I have some memory that they   
   >> guessed so), ...   
   >   
   > One problem I have, when I look too closely at the story, is that I   
   > don't have any clear idea of what the Ring could do!  We know it   
   > could cloud the minds of people who touched it or even were near it   
   > for extended periods.  We know that it let its wearer see and control   
   > the thoughts of the wearers of the other Rings. But what _powers_   
   > exactly did it have?   
   >   
   > It's almost like the Ring was what Hitchcock would call a McGuffin --   
   > the whole story turns on possessing it, but it's not actually   
   > important on its own.   
   >   
   >> And imagine that Frodo had been one day farther from Orodruin when the   
   >> battle occurred. Isn't there a concern that Sauron would catch on to   
   >> the real plan once it became clear that the battle honestly had been a   
   >> suicidal feint? "What the heck could they have been hoping to distract   
   >> me fro.... Oh!"   
   >   
   > I don't suppose we can allow that Gandalf sent Eagles to check out   
   > Frodo's position and advised Aragorn to pace his march accordingly.   
   > :-) Did the re-embodied Gandalf the White have some way to perceive   
   > things at a distance, or did perhaps one of the Valar speak to him in   
   > a dream?   
      
   we know that he could contact Frodo (and Sam) telepathically (at Amon   
   Hen, and later to spur them to a last effort at Mt Doom) and that he   
   could gather some information telepathically (e.g. of the events at   
   Parth Galen).   
      
   While he says in Fangorn that Frodo is out of reach for him now, that   
   may have to do with distance and effort spent.   
      
   > This does feel like a fairly gaping plot hole.  I can't really accept   
   > that Gandalf and Aragorn would start a suicidal battle just on the   
   > off chance that it _might_ give Frodo time to reach the Sammath Naur   
   > undetected.   
      
   of course that is how Gandalf advertises his plan in the war council,   
   and nobody objects. But based on the assumption that this is the last   
   chance to have any positive effect in the war (either Frodo succeeds   
   nevertheless or -much more likely- Sauron gets the Ring)  it does not   
   seem irrational to make such an effort.   
      
   I think Gandalf must have some knowledge of Frodo's whereabouts:   
   Gandalf knew when Frodo left Faramir, he may have an estimate of how   
   fast they would proceed if unhindered - which they almost did. Some time   
   was lost at the Orc tower - less than a day, some more by losing the way   
   in the Morgai, and a bit more, possibly, by taking the detour with the   
   orc army - but all in all I think Gandalf can't have expected them to   
   reach Orodruin earlier.   
   The above estimates plus some (possibly rough) telepathical information   
   gathering and the knowledge about limited supplies of Frodo and within   
   Mordor, may have led Gandalf to the conclusion that there was only a   
   very short time (1-2 weeks) after the Battle of the Pelennor until the   
   Quest would either have succeeded or surely failed.   
      
   regards   
    Geza   
      
      
   --   
                               Now come ye all,   
   who have courage and hope!  My call harken   
   to flight, to freedom       in far places!   
                                         Lays of Beleriand   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)