XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid   
      
   In message    
   Paul S. Person  spoke these staves:   
   >   
   > On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 13:07:51 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield   
   >  wrote:   
   >>   
   >> On 2013-06-28, Troels Forchhammer    
   >> wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>> at the time of writing and publishing _The Lord of the Rings_,   
   >>> Tolkien intended the balrog in Moria as well as Balrogs in   
   >>> general to be without wings and to be incapable of flight (as in   
   >>> flying in the air like a bird, bat, or a Christian angel or   
   >>> demon).   
   >>   
   >> So, the question is, why and how and when did Balrogs become   
   >> incarnate? Were they incarnate?   
      
      
      
   > It has been a /very/ long time since I read /BOLT/, aka /HoME 1 &   
   > 2/, but, IIRC, Balrogs were originally "fire spirits" (or perhaps   
   > "fire elementals") bound to physical form by Morgoth.   
      
   In the Book of Lost Tales and the earlist versions of the   
   Silmarillion, the Balrogs were "fire-demons" created by Melko /   
   Morgoth. So still in the Quenta Silmarillion of the mid-thirties   
       [...] in the North Morgoth built his strength, and gathered   
       his demons about him. These were the first made of his   
       creatures: their hearts were of fire, and they had whips of   
       flame. The Gnomes in later days named them Balrogs.   
   _The Lost Road and Other Writings_, p.212 (QS, Ch.3(a)§18)   
      
   The concept of the Maiar, and with them the idea that the Balrogs   
   were originally discarnate spirits that took shape based on Morgoth's   
   design, is probably a result of developments that happened fairly   
   late in the writing of LotR (Frodo's statement that "The Shadow that   
   bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its   
   own." VI,1) and appears (as far as I can find) not to be attested   
   until after he had finished writing LotR. When Tolkien wrote (and re-   
   wrote) the Moria chapters, the Balrog was conceived of as a fire-   
   demon _created_ by Morgoth (just as the Orcs were a kind of lesser   
   demons made in mockery of the Elves ... like Treebeard says).   
      
      
      
   > The classic method of killing a Balrog, of course, consists in   
   > three steps:   
   >   
   > 1) Tightly grasp the Balrog.   
   > 2) Fall from a great height, preferably into water.   
   > 3) Die.   
      
   I think no. to should read "Fall from a great height, preferably onto   
   rocks or into water."  ;-)   
      
   ?   
      
   >> The Moria Balrog appeared to Gandalf to shift form; but if Balrogs   
   >> were not incarnate, and only wearing fánar, then (a) there's no   
   >> reason they couldn't fly, (b) kicking one off a mountain shouldn't   
   >> kill it.   
      
   The whole idea of Maiar and fánar were not present at the time when   
   Tolkien described the Moria encounter. Yet later Tolkien wrote the   
   _Ósanwe-kenta_ essay in which he, in a more or less incidental note,   
   describes how the Ainur could become bound to their fánar and thus   
   approach incarnation, but going there for interpreting the Moria   
   passage is taking a ret-con on a ret-con ...   
      
   --   
   Troels Forchhammer   
   Valid e-mail is    
   Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.   
      
       If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded   
       gold, it would be a merrier world.   
    - Thorin Oakenshield, /The Hobbit/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
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