From: mr@sandman.net   
      
   In article , Paul S. Person  wrote:   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > Gandalf and Thorin We start in Bree (with PJ eating a carrot!)   
   > > where it rains... And in the Prancing Pony. You get the feeling   
   > > that they had to reuse old sets due to financial constraints. It   
   > > just feels lazy. Thorin is there having a meal and Gandalf joins   
   > > him. Gandlaf urges him to take back the mountain, so this is a   
   > > flashback to before the first movie. It's a set piece.   
   >   
   > Well, maybe. But it is more likely that they had to /re-create/ the   
   > Prancing Pony (and Bree). Starting a film with backstory is, of   
   > course, old hat for PJ & accomplices, but at least the audience   
   > should be able to figure it out. (One of my colleagues at work   
   > thought the third film started with the story of Bilbo until it   
   > became clear that the subject was Gollum; hopefully, this will be   
   > clearer.)   
      
   Yes, the fact that it was back story didn't bother me. All LOTR   
   movies have started with a backstory.   
      
   Fellowship: War of the Last Alliance   
   Two Towers: Gandalf and the Balrog   
   Return of the King: Smeagol and Deagol   
      
   The Hobbit: Fall of Erebor   
      
   But I don't personally know if the quest of the lonely mountain was   
   *prompted* by Gandalf, as in Thorin needing to be persuaded to do it? Maybe   
   I'm just not remembering it.   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > As expected, Gandlaf leaves when they're about to enter Mirkwood,   
   > > but he is somehow "summoned" by Galadirel, to go to the tomb. Huh?   
   > > How is he summoned?   
   >   
   > I suggested that Galadriel just disappears in the first film because   
   > she was using some form of Elvish Mental Projection. Perhaps that is   
   > the explanation here.   
      
   Right, and Galadriel "speaks" to Elrond in the first trilogy as well, but   
   this gets weird later as I wrote below.   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > The gang enters the forest, and I think it's pretty nicely   
   > > illustrated how the illusions of the forest affects them. Bilbo   
   > > climbs up a tree and then spiders capture the dwarves. Bilbo kills   
   > > a spider and frees the dwarves and they fight them all together.   
   >   
   > No Elvish feast? (One of the defects in the Rankin-Bass is that   
   > Bilbo tells the Dwarves to "run to the wood-elves clearing" after   
   > freeing them from the spiders, but we never see the wood-elves   
   > clearing, which must be presumed to have ended up on the   
   > cutting-room floor as they tried to make room for one more   
   > commercial announcement.)   
      
   It is replaced with action :)   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > Bilbo doesn't steal anything and return to the dwarves though, and   
   > > Smaug doesn't cry bloody murder and fly out to scorch the   
   > > mountain. No, Bilbo finds the arcenstone which he was already told   
   > > about and supposedly takes it, and Smaugs doesn't notice. Instead,   
   > > the dwarves enter the mountain with Smaug still there! We have the   
   > > set pieces for a new action scene!   
   >   
   > IIRC, we saw Smaug in the first film (at the beginning). And the   
   > vast sea of golden objects.   
      
   Trust me - that was *NOTHING*. That was, in size, just a fore-chamber to   
   what we se in DOS (Desolation of Smaug).   
      
   > And we saw the Arkenstone lost in that sea by Dwarves who were /inside/   
   > Erebor instead of being, as in the book, /outside/ Erebor. But it is nice   
   > to see the Arkenstone in Bilbo's possession, as we know what /that/ leads   
   > to eventually.   
      
   Right, but the timing is just wrong.   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > Obviously, being a fire breathing dragon, molten gold is nothing   
   > > but an inconvenience to Smaug so he bursts out of the gold and out   
   > > of Erebor, shaking off the molten gold and making for lake town...   
   > > BUT WHY? Thorin is RIGHT THERE!   
   >   
   > This reminds me of a reviewer's comment on the fight between the two   
   > oriental warriors in the first /GI Joe/ movie: one of them takes of   
   > his shirt "for no other reason than that the director told him to".   
      
   > Smaug flies off to Laketown, I would suggest, because that is what   
   > the Plot requires him to do -- that is, because the Director told   
   > him to.   
      
   No, not at all. That's what *Tolkien* told him to do, because that's what   
   he does! But the film makers have gone to great lengths to invalidate the   
   very reason for him to do it! In the movie - there is NOTHING that would   
   draw Smaug to lake town. In the book, lake town is the only place ha CAN   
   attack, because he can not see the thief, so he does not have any other to   
   take it out on.   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > But I've left out some parts that weren't in the book, and it's   
   > > the storyline of Gandalf after he leaves the company. He was told   
   > > by Galadirel to go to the tomb, remember? Yeah, so that would be   
   > > the tomb of the With-king of Angmar, the invention of the earlier   
   > > movie.   
   >   
   > > He arrives there, having also summoned Radagast that joins him   
   > > there. He looks at the now open grave and tells Radagast that here   
   > > was once nine graves, belonging to the ring wraiths. Argh! What   
   > > the hell! They're not dead!   
   >   
   > In the Tolkien-verse, as it were, they aren't; but, it would appear,   
   > in the PJ-and-accomplices-verse, they clearly were.   
      
   I refuse to accept that as a valid reason. I mean, added actions scenes is   
   one thing, changing the foundation of some very important characters is   
   another.   
      
   > I was wondering if it would turn out that PJ & accomplices are using   
   > /TH/ as an Origin Story for the Nazgul. This seems consistent with   
   > that.   
      
   Dunno, but Gandalf refers to them as ring wraiths in DOS already (as far as   
   I can remember) so it seems that they already are wraiths, but imprisoned?   
   I don't know, it's confusing.   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > Gandalfs summons a white orb of light around him (much like the   
   > > one around him in Moria) and a power struggle ensues until he   
   > > learns that the shadow is Sauron and Gandalf is overpowered and   
   > > imprisoned.   
   >   
   > That ... isn't that far off from the Tale of Years, is it? Or is my   
   > memory failing me again? (IIRC, though, Gandalf was imprisoned   
   > /before/ he copped to who the Necromancer truly was.)   
      
   Indeed, this part doesn't trouble me at all - other than the perhaps   
   over-display of powers on Gandalfs (and indeed, even Sauron) part. But as I   
   said, this is a delicate matters. On one side, he's a freaking wizard, but   
   on the other side; if he had such powers, why didn't he use them more   
   often?   
      
   But the scene(s) in Dol Goldur in themselves are perfectly "valid" so to   
   speak.   
      
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