XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies   
      
   In message    
     Paul S  Person  wrote:   
   > On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 13:38:56 +0200, Taemon  wrote:   
      
   >>It is not a fact, no. It just isn't something to take into account, and   
   >>there are very good reasons for that. Like the Celestial Teapot, the   
   >>Spaghetti Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, you MUST have had this   
   >>discussion before.   
      
   > I have had similar discussions before and, if one of them was with   
   > you, feel free to drop out of this one. No point in rehashing the   
   > past.   
      
   > I think a bit of concreteness might help: all I am really trying to   
   > say is that your prior statement that you "know that magic doesn't   
   > exist" would, given its nature as a non-falsifiable statement, have   
   > been more clearly (and so arguably better) put as "believe that magic   
   > doesn't exist" (modifying "believe" with whatever adverbs, such as   
   > "strongly", "definitely", "deeply", and so on you feel appropriate).   
      
   Nope. 100% wrong. He does not *believe* that magic doesn't exist, just   
   as I don't *believe* that it doesn't exist. It does not exist. Period.   
   That is a simple fact, no belief necessary.   
      
   Now, if someone were to come along and prove that magic *did* exist,   
   then I would no longer know that magic does not exist, I would know that   
   magic *does* exist.   
      
   There is, nowhere, a need for *belief*.   
      
   > It is a fact that you believe that magic doesn't exist, but that does   
   > not make it a fact that magic doesn't exist,   
      
   Of course not. Magic does not exist is a fact independent of anyone's   
   belief. It simply is. Your belief in facts (or disbelief in them) has no   
   effect on their factualness or existence.   
      
   > and (in my experience)   
   > claiming that this is a fact when it is only a belief confuses others   
   > for no good reason.   
      
   It only confuses people who think that belief is important. It's not.   
   It's meaningless.   
      
   --   
   Come on. Somewhere at the edge of the bell curve is the girl for me.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)