XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies   
      
   In message    
     Paul S  Person  wrote:   
   > On Mon, 2 Jun 2014 10:51:08 +0000 (UTC), Lewis   
   >  wrote:   
      
   >>In message    
   >>  Paul S  Person  wrote:   
   >>> On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 13:38:56 +0200, Taemon  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>>It is not a fact, no. It just isn't something to take into account, and   
   >>>>there are very good reasons for that. Like the Celestial Teapot, the   
   >>>>Spaghetti Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, you MUST have had this   
   >>>>discussion before.   
   >>   
   >>> I have had similar discussions before and, if one of them was with   
   >>> you, feel free to drop out of this one. No point in rehashing the   
   >>> past.   
   >>   
   >>> I think a bit of concreteness might help: all I am really trying to   
   >>> say is that your prior statement that you "know that magic doesn't   
   >>> exist" would, given its nature as a non-falsifiable statement, have   
   >>> been more clearly (and so arguably better) put as "believe that magic   
   >>> doesn't exist" (modifying "believe" with whatever adverbs, such as   
   >>> "strongly", "definitely", "deeply", and so on you feel appropriate).   
   >>   
   >>Nope. 100% wrong. He does not *believe* that magic doesn't exist, just   
   >>as I don't *believe* that it doesn't exist. It does not exist. Period.   
   >>That is a simple fact, no belief necessary.   
      
   > He (Taemon) has, in fact, clearly stated that, for him, "magic does   
   > not exist" is a non-falsifiable statement. He was offered a choice of   
   > four categories, the first of which is the one you have picked -- and   
   > he did not. I think Taemon knows what his position on this statement   
   > is far better than you do.   
      
   It doesn’t matter what his position is, facts are facts and belief is   
   meaningless.   
      
   >>Now, if someone were to come along and prove that magic *did* exist,   
   >>then I would no longer know that magic does not exist, I would know that   
   >>magic *does* exist.   
      
   > That is not how facts work. A fact is a fact is a fact. It can neither   
   > be proven nor falsified, but is simply known to be true.   
      
   That is so completely absurd I don't know where to begin.   
      
   > Another way to look at it: factual statements cannot be proven,   
   > falsified, or believed. They are the statements that everybody accepts   
   > and so nobody cares to debate. The pool of facts is subject to   
   > fluctuation over time, although with the movement from handwritten   
   > records to printed records to computers the longevity of a fact is   
   > likely to improve.   
      
   Utter crap. "God does not exist" is a factual statement that most people   
   would not accept; it's still a fact.   
      
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