From: mr@sandman.net   
      
   In article , Paul S. Person  wrote:   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > I just think that that line of thinking has so many other   
   > > implications. Wouldn't that be the only known intervention of a   
   > > divine power in the story? Which of course lends the question -   
   > > why the only one? Surely there were other more important things   
   > > he/it could intervene with if something as trivial as this   
   > > required his/its attention.   
   >   
   > > A discussion for another time, perhaps :)   
   >   
   > So few topics are discussed here nowadays, it seems a shame to skip   
   > this one.   
      
   > As another poster has pointed out, Gandalf's return was special. It   
   > was, in fact /very/ special: IIRC, he "wandered outside the circles   
   > of the world" -- the vary place the Ainur who entered Arda were   
   > bound to. And he was sent back, less hobbled than Manwe had desired,   
   > since it was apparent to Someone that Manwe's plan had failed with   
   > the death of Gandalf (two had disappeared into the East, Radagast   
   > was focused on animals and not his mission, and Saruman had turned).   
      
   If you listen to Tolkien (Letters #156) he is clear that Gandalf sacrificed   
   himself at Khazad Dum, at great cost of his mission in Middle Earth, the   
   very mission the Valar had bestowed upon him as an Istari. But it was   
   Iluvatar that sent him back, yes. It must be, since Tolkien is clear that   
   it was not the Valar that sent him back, it was the "Authority", "he who   
   ordained the Rules", i.e. Ilulvatar, as you say.   
      
   > Then there is that event at the Cracks of Doom, where Gollum fell   
   > into the lava taking the Ring with him, "by chance, as we say in   
   > Middle-Earth". But, outside of Middle-Earth, it may not have been by   
   > chance at all -- it may have been by the direct action of a very   
   > concerned Someone.   
      
   Yes, I touched on this in another thread. Tolkien seems relatively clear on   
   this topic, where Gollum tripping was a direct intervention by Iluvatar   
   himself.   
      
   > Which would mean that, in a sense, the /entire/ success of the   
   > effort to defeat Sauron ultimately rested on the occasional actions   
   > of Someone other than anyone involved, including Manwe: the final   
   > sequence, as it were, started with Bilbo, who was meant to find the   
   > Ring, continued with the repurposing of Gandalf, and ended with a   
   > fall "by chance" into the lava.   
      
   Yes, but Tolkien also said that the only single person in the entire Middle   
   Earth that could possibly have taken the ring so far as to the cracks of   
   mount doom was none other than Frodo, which means that having Bilbo find   
   the ring must then have been with this in mind. Does Iluvatar predict the   
   future to such a precision?   
      
   Remember, when Bilbo found the ring, Frodo wasn't even born! So, either   
   Iluvatar is one hell of a good guesser, or there is some other explanation.   
   Did he think Bilbo, at the time, was the only one strong enough to take the   
   ring to Mordor?   
      
   There's a great mix of providence and chance here. :)   
      
      
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