XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: mr@sandman.net   
      
   In article <99f24atekkj126dhc8rth6lmi187pns9u2@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person  wrote:   
      
   > > > Paul S. Person:   
   > > > This, mind you, in a context where only one Man, Isuldur, and   
   > > > one class of Men, the "proud and powerful" are being discussed.   
   > > > They are not "all Men" either.   
   > >   
   > > Sandman:   
   > > Right - the topic wasn't the one ring though - but the nine, who   
   > > were all given to men, and who all were corrupted by them. As   
   > > opposed to the seven, who were given to dwarves and who weren't   
   > > corrupted.   
   >   
   > No, the topic was /inconsistency/ -- when an Elf who has been   
   > corrupted, then he or she is "just one Elf" (although two have   
   > actually been identified). When a Man, or a group of Men, are   
   > corrupted, then suddenly it is /all/ Men who are corruptable. This   
   > is not consistent.   
      
   Not sure who you're quoting here, who said all men were corruptible? You   
   may be in reference to this, as the "topic":   
      
     Bill O'Meally   
      
     "I don't think it was because Men could or could not detect   
     the danger. Tolkien makes it pretty clear that Men were more   
     easily corrupted than Elves."   
      
   That doesn't mean that all men were corruptible, or that no elves where   
   corruptible though. It's a general statement about them as races. Not sure   
   how this supposedly changes the topic from what I was talking about?   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > Fear is not a choice.   
   >   
   > But how we respond to it is. And we are generally considered to be   
   > responsible for our choices.   
      
   Right, but the theory here is that men are more likely to seek power and   
   glory for their own winnings due to their fear of death, thus being more   
   corruptible. Everything is a choice, but men - in this scenario - are more   
   likely to choose a tool to gain power.   
      
   Men does not, however, "choose" to be corrupted, that is in this case a   
   result in their desire for power and glory, and by using tools offered to   
   them to fulfill that desire.   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > I'm questioning where the supposed "reality" of 99.9% and 99.8%   
   > > comes from. Are those numbers you just invented? Where are you   
   > > getting them from?   
   >   
   > Yes, those are number I just invented.   
      
   > They are intended to illustrate that point that "more" may be   
   > appropriate in a situation where it is not, in fact, meaningful.   
      
   > Without knowing what percentage of Men (in general) and what   
   > percentage of Elves (in general) would be affected by a ring, we   
   > cannot tell if Men are "more easily persuaded" enough for that   
   > statement to actually mean anything.   
      
   But we know that. Of all the rings, ~45% were exposed to men and of those   
   men ~85% were corrupted.   
      
   Of the 20 rings, 20% were exposed to Elves and 0% were corrupted.   
      
      
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   Sandman[.net]   
      
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