From: mr@sandman.net   
      
   In article , Paul S. Person  wrote:   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > Probably. It's a bit like rescue gandlaf! Fight ringwraiths1   
   > > banish Sauron! Oh, time over for supper!   
   >   
   > I forgot to ask: does Galadriel awaken Gandalf with a kiss, as she   
   > appears to do in the trailer? Have PJ & accomplices been overdosing   
   > on Disney animation?   
      
   I don't... think so, not that I can remember. But she does cradle him and   
   speak to him softly to wake him. Not really lovingly like that.   
      
   > > > Paul S. Person:   
   > > > Film companies employ people (called "continuity" in the   
   > > > credits) /precisely/ in order to avoid these glitches.   
   > >   
   > > Sandman:   
   > > No, this isn't a continuity error. They garb up when the elfs and   
   > > men mass around Erebor, and confront them in full golden armor,   
   > > looks awesome. Then the Ironihill dwarves arrive and THorin just   
   > > retreats back into the mountain. Apparently all dwarves removes   
   > > their armour, frustrated that they can't join the battle, so when   
   > > THorin comes around, they have their normal garb.   
   >   
   > But you (if I understand you correctly) didn't see them remove their   
   > garb. You merely inferred it.   
      
   Well, it was implicit in their frustration of just sitting around. There   
   may even have been a short scene of Kili ripping some part of his armour   
   off when he realizes they won't join the fight.   
      
   > How do we know that the scenes weren't shot weeks apart, and   
   > continuity messed up?   
      
   I feel pretty sure about that.   
      
   > > > > Sandman:   
   > > > > Tauriel and Kili While a love affair between an elf   
   > > > > and a dwarve is pretty outlandish to begin with, even if the   
   > > > > dwarf is as handsome as Kili, it is taken to unreasonable   
   > > > > heights in this movie. It was merely hinted at in the last   
   > > > > movie, which was, well "ok". Here it is outright "true love"   
   > > > > and when Kili is killed, Tauriel weeps. It's out of place and   
   > > > > they've met, what, three times? Please.   
   > > >   
   > > > Paul S. Person:   
   > > > Actually, instant true love isn't that uncommon in films. Or   
   > > > books, for that matter. It may or may not be in real life, but a   
   > > > film with Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, Orcs and other oddities isn't   
   > > > exactly "real life", now is it?   
   > >   
   > > Sandman:   
   > > That's Disney movies, not actual movies, unless they're pretty   
   > > old. Movies with "instant true love" still have scenes that   
   > > establish the love to be true, which Kili+Tauriel severly lacks.   
   > > We'll see what the Extended Edition brings to the table.   
   >   
   > I will have to see the film before being sure -- and I may end up   
   > agreeing with you.   
      
   > After all, I found the histrionics toward the end of /The Amazing   
   > Spider-Man 2/ to be rather overdone, and I think the true love had   
   > been established reasonably well -- at least, enough screen-time was   
   > devoted to it so that it was clear that that was what the filmmakers   
   > were trying to establish.   
      
   Indeed.   
      
   > But I may have been negatively influenced by the distinct tinges of   
   > racism and sexism evident in the film.   
      
   Uhm...   
      
   > > > Paul S. Person:   
   > > > And not just chick flicks/rom-coms; consider /The Fisher King/.   
   > > > "It's like they were made for each other." Or even /The King and   
   > > > I/: the song "Some enchanted evening".   
   > >   
   > > Sandman:   
   > > Been a while since I saw either, so can't comment.   
   >   
   > Neither are Disney movies.   
      
   > Instant true love is an inherent part of the Western literary   
   > culture. It is used in all sorts of films and books. But that   
   > doesn't mean it was used properly here; I shall have to see.   
      
   For the record - it's not the concept of "instant true love" I have a   
   problem with, it's the idea that it exists in a story without any   
   perceivable reason for it to exist. If true love is included, give a   
   convincing storyline for its existence.   
      
   > > > > Sandman:   
   > > > > Alfrid The comic relief sidekick of the master of   
   > > > > lake town, he's way over the top and every scene with him is   
   > > > > pure agony.   
   > > >   
   > > > Paul S. Person:   
   > > > Perhaps he took lessons from Radagast (in the first film).   
   > >   
   > > Sandman:   
   > > He's way worse.   
   >   
   > I'll have to see that; Radagast in the rabbit(IIRC)-drawn sleigh was   
   > pretty bad.   
      
   I would rather have that scene playing over and over again than any scene   
   with Alfrid. BUt that's me. I dislike comedic characters who'se only job   
   description is "In this scene, you should be funny, ok?"   
      
   > > > > Sandman:   
   > > > > Huge "trolls" When the second wave of orc's arrive,   
   > > > > they bring with them enormous trolls with large catapults on   
   > > > > their backs. This feels like just an obvious throwback to the   
   > > > > Mumakil of LotR, but luckily we don't have Legolas killing one   
   > > > > without breaking a sweat. :)   
   > > >   
   > > > Paul S. Person:   
   > > > In the trailer, they looked like the ones operating the Black   
   > > > Gate.   
   > >   
   > > Sandman:   
   > > No, they are way larger. The one's operating the black gate is the   
   > > same size as the cave troll in Moria.   
   >   
   > > > Paul S. Person:   
   > > > Also, in the trailer, they appeared to be immune to sunlight.   
   > >   
   > > Sandman:   
   > > Yeah, sunlight has no effect on either trolls or orc's in this   
   > > movie, and Gandlaf even comment on a lot of the orcs being orcs of   
   > > Mordor, however that is even possible.   
   >   
   > I would say "Homer nodded" but that would give the scriptwriters far   
   > too much credit.   
      
   > Still, in the Middle Earth of PJ & accomplices who can say what may   
   > be happening in Mordor while Sauron is at Dol Guldur? And, IIRC, he   
   > had been preparing Mordor for his return for some time when he was   
   > driven out of Dol Goldur by the White Council.   
      
   But it's a fair bet he hadn't yet been breeding Olog-hai at this point.   
      
   > > > Paul S. Person:   
   > > > Perhaps the theory is that, since the Uruk-hai can resist the   
   > > > sun, so can the Oleg-hai.   
   > >   
   > > Sandman:   
   > > That's not the theory, it's all according to Tolkien himself,   
   > > Olog-hai was bred by Sauron for that very purpose.   
   >   
   > I was aware that the Uruk-hai were resistant to the sun.   
      
   > I don't recall JRRT saying anywhere that the Oleg-hai were.   
      
   > But it seems a reasonable inference that they were.   
      
   Olog-hai. Yes, they were, in Appendix F:   
      
     "But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared   
      in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai   
      they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted,   
   though   
      from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but   
      giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite   
      unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and   
   power.   
      Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell   
      race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike   
      the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the   
      will of Sauron held sway over them.   
      
   > > Sandman:   
   > > I think it's just a typical case of repeating something popular,   
      
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