XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: degrafi@freenet.de   
      
   Hi!   
      
   Am 04.06.2015 um 10:06 schrieb Barry Schwarz:   
   > On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 22:29:07 -0400, Stan Brown   
   >  wrote:   
   >   
   >> On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 16:30:38 -0700, Barry Schwarz wrote:   
   >>> And what of the fall of Númenor?  While the attitude of many had   
   >>> changed long before Ar-Pharazôn, surely the Valar knew that Sauron had   
   >>> instigated the final act of rebellion.  And still they did nothing.   
   >>   
   >> "Laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One", the Appendix   
   >> says. They knew they were unable to deal with this crisis, so they   
   >> referred to the Home Office for orders and assistance.   
   >   
   > The Elves (and Men) had no chance against a single Vala in the First   
   > Age. Yet the entire host of Ainur could not deal with a bunch of ships   
   > sitting off their coast?  Surely Ulmo and Manwe could pre-create the   
   > Spanish Armada or Mongolian invasion fleet destructions.   
      
   I'm not sure that fact that they 'couldn't deal with the crisis' does   
   compellingly mean that they wouldn't have been able to send the whole   
   numenorian fleet to the sea bottom. I think they didn't know what to do,   
   maybe they never thought that men would dare such a deed. I guess they   
   had been somewhat affected and clueless. Indeed this 'incident' and the   
   return of 'powered-up' Gandalf were the only occasions which I recall to   
   be a result of a direct interference of Illuvatar. But maybe I've   
   forgotten some...   
   In some way Illuvatar showed his Vala and Maia that they are (though   
   immensely powerful) no gods and that they, as well as any being upon   
   Arda, had their limits.   
      
   Michael   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)