[continued from previous message]   
      
   Some still defend the use of "Angmar" as a convenient nickname, but as   
   others find this irritating it is probably best avoided.   
   -------   
      
   13. What was Gothmog (the lieutenant of Morgul)?   
      
      Gothmog (who shares his name with the Lord of Balrogs in the First   
   Age) took command of Sauron's forces after the Witch-king was   
   destroyed.  Some believe that like the Mouth of Sauron he was human,   
   while others claim that so responsible a position in Minas Morgul would   
   only be given to another Nazgul.  Several other possibilities also   
   arise repeatedly.  There seems to be no explicit evidence for any   
   particular answer.   
   -------   
      
   14. What was the origin of Orcs?   
      
   [This updates question V.G.1 of the Tolkien LessFAQ.]   
      
      Tolkien never seems to have firmly resolved this question in his own   
   mind, let alone on paper.  While /The Silmarillion/ as published states   
   fairly clearly that Orcs were corrupted Elves, /Unfinished Tales/ hints   
   that some strains of Orcs may have been bred from the Druedain.   
   Tolkien's latest writings on the issue (found in Texts VIII-X of the   
   "Myths Transformed" section in /Morgoth's Ring/) show him considering   
   many possible origins: corrupted Elves, corrupted Men, very minor Maiar   
   (a small number of original Orcish leaders only), or even beasts given   
   fragments of Morgoth's own will so they would have some measure of   
   independence. Some combination of these origins seems most likely from   
   the texts, though the last of them was probably rejected.   
      
      All of these suggested origins still support the notion that Orcs   
   reproduced in the same manner as other races (and therefore that there   
   were female Orcs).  This is explicitly discussed in Text X of "Myths   
   Transformed", which states that   
      
      Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few   
      generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits;   
      and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing   
      new breeds, often larger and more cunning.   
      
   The role of female Orcs in their society is not at all clear.   
   -------   
      
   15. Were Orcs immortal, and what happened to them after death?   
      
      Given that Tolkien never firmly decided on the origin of Orcs (as   
   discussed in question III.B.14), it is unsurprising that little is   
   known about their fate.  It seems clear that creatures descended even   
   in part from humans would be mortal (as the Princes of Dol Amroth were;   
   Elrond and his kin were special exceptions).  In one his many   
   conflicting essays about Orcs (Text X of "Myths Transformed" in   
   /Morgoth's Ring/), Tolkien does give a direct answer to these   
   questions:   
      
      They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart   
      from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to   
      the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature   
      short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as   
      the Edain.   
      
   The apparent clarity of this statement may be misleading, considering   
   the frequency with which Tolkien made and contradicted assertions about   
   Orcs in the "Myths Transformed" texts.   
      
      There are several reasons to believe that at least some Orcs had   
   very long lives.  One of the strongest is based on the death dates of   
   the Orc Azog and his son Bolg.  Azog was killed at the Battle of   
   Azanulbizar in 2799, while Bolg was killed at the Battle of Five Armies   
   in 2941.  Thus, Bolg was still alive and strong over 140 years after   
   his conception.   
      
      More circumstantial evidence can be found in "The Choices of Master   
   Samwise", when Sam overhears Gorbag speaking to Shagrat:   
      
      '...if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere   
      on our own... somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and   
      no big bosses.'   
      
      'Ah!' said Shagrat.	'Like old times.'   
      
   At this time, Sauron had been openly ruling Mordor for sixty-eight   
   years, but Shagrat and Gorbag seem to recall a time when he wasn't in   
   charge.  This could mean that they were over seventy years old, that it   
   took Sauron many years to establish firm control over his minions, or   
   that they heard stories of "old times" from their elders.   
      
      Gorbag also makes reference to "the Great Siege", which might refer   
   either to the siege of the Last Alliance on Mordor or to the siege of   
   Angband in the First Age, but it is less clear that he actually   
   remembers it.  Similarly, the goblins who captured Bilbo and Thorin in   
   /The Hobbit/ had a surprisingly clear memory of the swords from   
   Gondolin that they called "Beater and Biter", but there are   
   explanations for that other than personal experience.   
      
      As for their fate after death, this would depend very much on their   
   origins (again, refer to question III.B.14).  Beasts would presumably   
   not /have/ a fate after death, and it seems likely that creatures   
   descended even in part from Men would share their Gift and leave the   
   world.  Near the end of Text VIII of "Myths Transformed", Tolkien   
   comments that if there were an Elvish strain among Orcs, "dying they   
   would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End."  It also seems   
   possible that Orcish spirits would refuse the summons to Mandos, as   
   discussed in question III.B.6 of this FAQ; it is even conceivable that   
   they could be reborn or re-embodied if they then returned to Morgoth or   
   Sauron.   
   -------   
      
   16. What was the relationship between Orcs and Goblins?   
      
   [This supplements question V.F.1 of the Tolkien FAQ.]   
      
      The words "Orc" and "Goblin" are essentially identical in meaning,   
   but Tolkien's inconsistent usage in /The Hobbit/ has led to   
   considerable confusion.  Still, a clear answer comes from Tolkien's   
   introductory note to later editions of that book, which explains that   
      
      /Orc/ is not an English word.  It occurs in one or two places but is   
      usually translated /goblin/ (or /hobgoblin/ for the larger kinds).   
      /Orc/ is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these   
      creatures.   
      
   Some have taken this and other comments in /The Hobbit/ (such as the   
   reference to "the big ones, the orcs of the mountains" near the end of   
   "Riddles in the Dark") to mean that "Goblins" were smaller and "Orcs"   
   larger.  However, Tolkien did not generally make this distinction.  For   
   instance, the name /Orcrist/ is translated "Goblin-cleaver" in all   
   editions of /The Hobbit/. Another clear example comes from the chapter   
   "The Riders of Rohan" in LotR, when the companions reach the edge of   
   Fangorn:   
      
      Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its   
      shattered helm the white badge could still be seen.   
      
   The white badge makes it all but certain that this was one of the large   
   Uruk-hai.  In fact, it seems plausible that this was the head of Ugluk   
   himself, slain after a climactic fight sword to sword with Eomer at the   
   end of the battle.  If one of the Uruk-hai could be called a goblin,   
   any Orc could.   
   -------   
      
   17. What was the origin of Saruman's Uruk-hai?   
      
      Whatever the details of their origins, all evidence indicates that   
   like all Orcs, Saruman's Uruk-hai were bred "naturally" by mating   
   humanoid creatures who then bore live young. The real questions are   
   whether it was Sauron or Saruman who planned that breeding, and what   
   stock they were bred from.   
      
      It is important that the meaning of "Uruk-hai" be clear from the   
   start.  Appendix F says that "the word /uruk/ of the Black Speech...   
   was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time   
   issued from Mordor and Isengard."  As for the plural, the index of   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)