XPost: alt.agnosticism, alt.athiesm, alt.talk.creationism
XPost: sci.skeptic
On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 23:03:42 +1100, felix_unger wrote:
>On 22-November-2014 1:28 PM, mur.@.not. wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 09:20:14 +1100, felix_unger wrote:
>> ..
>>> On 15-November-2014 8:19 AM, mur.@.not. wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 14 Nov 2014 23:30:20 +1100, Sylvia Else
>>>> wrote:
>>>> ..
>>>>> On 7/11/2014 5:48 AM, mur.@.not. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 11:09:41 +1100, felix_unger wrote:
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> On 05-November-2014 6:22 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2014 5:36 PM, felix_unger wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 05-November-2014 10:30 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2014 10:26 AM, felix_unger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 05-November-2014 10:23 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2014 8:39 AM, felix_unger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ppl believe because of the evidence
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, we needn't concern ourselves about the fact that people
believe.
>>>>>>>>>>>> We need only look at the evidence that causes them to believe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What is that evidence?
>>>>>>>>>>> in regards to what?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You said people believe because of the evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So in regards to whatever it is that the people believe.
>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure what you're on about. ppl believe what they do for a
>>>>>>>>> reason. the reason for any belief will vary according to the basis
>>>>>>>>> for it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The reason most people believe in God is that their parents told them
>>>>>>>> to when they had no intellectual defence. I was fortunate not to
>>>>>>>> suffer that kind of child abuse.
>>>>>>> and so it would follow then that the reason most people don't believe
in
>>>>>>> God is that their parents told them not to when they had no
intellectual
>>>>>>> defence. IOW atheists raise atheists and religious parents indoctrinate
>>>>>>> their children with their beliefs. but a strange thing about children..
>>>>>>> they grow up to be adults who can think for themselves and make their
>>>>>>> own decisions about what to believe or not. and of course many children
>>>>>>> are not influenced about theism either way by responsible parents, such
>>>>>>> as mine were, and adults make choices about what they believe
regardless
>>>>>>> of childhood influences, or lack thereof.
>>>>>> There's also the aspect of the lying necessary to insist there
is no
>>>>>> evidence. The fact is that ALL evidence suggests God does exist since
there's NO
>>>>>> EVIDENCE he does not. That fact works against what atheists WANT TO
believe, and
>>>>>> claim to have put their own faith in even as they deny their faith. So
the
>>>>>> situation is that all evidence says God does exist yet atheists deny
there is
>>>>>> any, and atheists claim to believe what they say meaning they claim to
have
>>>>>> faith in their own belief while at the same time denying their own
faith. On top
>>>>>> of all that stupidity their demand for evidence PROVES they think there
should
>>>>>> be some proof of God's existence if he does exist yet they have not the
>>>>>> slightest clue what they think it should be, where it should be or why
it should
>>>>>> be there. They are truly like morons in regards to this topic, yet they
like to
>>>>>> think of themselves as authorities and feel that their abosute
cluelessness is
>>>>>> somehow intelligent. As is often the case, just describing the position
they're
>>>>>> in is hilarious.
>>>>>>
>>>>> My position is more along the lines that if God exists[*], then there is
>>>>> either objective evidence of that existence, or there's not.
>>>>>
>>>>> If there is objective evidence, I'd like to know what it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> If there's not, then, regardless of whether God actually exists, the
>>>>> question is why you'd believe that He does, given the absence of
>>>>> objective evidence.
>>>> Not having it I don't have a belief that he exists. But having
plenty of
>>>> evidence in general I do consider the possibility that he does. There's no
>>>> reason to believe there should be objective evidence. Evidence of the
truth of
>>>> that fact is that those of you who think there should be can't imagine
what it
>>>> should be, where it should be, or why any should be made available to
humans in
>>>> general. That means the absence of it is meaningLESS, and certainly no
reason at
>>>> all to put faith in the possibility that there's no God associated with
Earth.
>>>>
>>>>> Sylvia
>>>>>
>>>>> [*] I've argued elsewhere that objective evidence could in principle
>>>>> exist even if God does not, but that need not concern us here.
>>>> It's certainly something to take into consideration since the
reason that
>>>> there is none could be because God does exist and prevents it from being
>>>> available. Another area where you are clueless is your inability to
imagine the
>>>> obvious possibility that God exists and deliberately withholds proof of
his
>>>> existence for reasons of his own.
>>> the bible has something to say about that..
>>>
>>> Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because
>>> anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards
>>> those who earnestly seek him"
>> That it a good one. I can't have faith that he exists though. It seems
to me
>> something must happen for everyone who does but whether it does or not I
can't
>> just decide to have it, and then have it.
>
>true
>
>> It seems like getting the reason to
>> have faith would be from God's direction.
>
>yes
>
>> I've certainly got reason to consider
>> the possibility that he does exist, and feel that it's likely, but not to
have
>> actual faith.
>
>as the verse says.. you have to first believe that God exists. that's
>the 'starting line'. and if you can't get to that point, then there's
>nowhere to go.
>
>> To say I do have it would be lying to myself and anyone else, and
>> I doubt he would approve of that.
>
>yes
So I make the approach to him. It's up to him whether I ever develop faith
in his existence and influence or not. Atheists would like that to be up to
them
for whatever reason they give a shit about it, but so far it's not up to them
in
any way. I have challenged them to provide reason to put faith in the one
possibility they are able to consider though, whether you've noticed that or
not. I've done it a number of times. But they are no more able to provide that
than they are to try explaining what sort of evidence they think should be
where
or why if God does exist. AFAIK they never have had anything at all, and it
seems there's no way they ever could....nothing more than their own unevidenced
faith that is.
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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