XPost: alt.agnosticism, alt.atheism, alt.talk.creationism
XPost: sci.skeptic
On Sat, 06 Dec 2014 07:27:27 +1100, felix_unger wrote:
.
>On 01-December-2014 1:27 AM, mur.@.not. wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 11:07:06 -0700, Bob Casanova wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 22:55:43 +1100, the following appeared
>>> in sci.skeptic, posted by felix_unger :
>>>
>>>> On 22-November-2014 5:04 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 10:45:03 -0700, the following appeared
>>>>> in sci.skeptic, posted by Bob Casanova :
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 11:35:16 +1100, the following appeared
>>>>>> in sci.skeptic, posted by felix_unger :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 19-November-2014 5:21 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 22:22:42 +1100, the following appeared
>>>>>>>> in sci.skeptic, posted by felix_unger :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 17-November-2014 4:56 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 10:41:33 +1100, the following appeared
>>>>>>>>>> in sci.skeptic, posted by felix_unger :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 16-November-2014 5:14 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 10:29:45 +1100, the following appeared
>>>>>>>>>>>> in sci.skeptic, posted by felix_unger :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15-November-2014 5:23 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 00:28:47 +1100, the following appeared
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in sci.skeptic, posted by felix_unger :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 14-November-2014 11:30 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My position is more along the lines that if God exists[*],
then there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is either objective evidence of that existence, or there's
not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there is objective evidence, I'd like to know what it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there's not, then, regardless of whether God actually
exists, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question is why you'd believe that He does, given the absence
of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objective evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you accept that people may have/have had real experiences
of God, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are empowered by faith to change their life?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Sylvia, but *I* accept that there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who believe they have had such experiences, and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith (defined as "belief without proof") can certainly be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life-changing. Neither of these has anything to do with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objective evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I didn't say ppl who 'believe they have had such
experiences' I said
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'have had'.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So they have objective evidence which shows that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences were real, and not simply something they believe
>>>>>>>>>>>> happened? If not, how is such belief verified?
>>>>>>>>>>> how could ppl prove they have had some experience of/from God?
>>>>>>>>>> By having objective evidence that they did, perhaps?
>>>>>>>>> such as? this is the question that mur keeps asking. what objective
>>>>>>>>> evidence would you expect to see/have that someone has had an
experience
>>>>>>>>> of God?
>>>>>>>> Mur won't provide objective evidence because he presumably
>>>>>>>> has none, and tries to shift the burden of proof to his
>>>>>>>> opponents; don't sink to mur's level. Objective evidence is
>>>>>>>> simply evidence that any disinterested observer can observe.
>>>>>>>> It's not up to anyone but the claimant to provide the
>>>>>>>> evidence, and once the claimant has what he/she considers to
>>>>>>>> be objective evidence it's up to him/her to present it. This
>>>>>>>> is pretty basic.
>>>>>>> but you're being unrealistic for the simple reason that there would be
>>>>>>> no objective/physical evidence of a spiritual encounter. would you
>>>>>>> expect the persons face to be glowing? or them to be floating off the
>>>>>>> ground? but religious faith has changed ppls lives. that is objective
>>>>>>> evidence, is it not?
>>>>>> That faith can change peoples' lives is indeed objective
>>>>>> evidence, but only that faith can change peoples' lives.
>>>>>> It's not evidence that there is any factual basis for that
>>>>>> faith.
>>>> a changed life is objective evidence that faith can change lives, but it
>>>> is also evidence that there is a factual basis producing the result.
>>>> that could be just be some psychological mechanism, or it could be that
>>>> there is some spiritual force, or other power at work. faith by itself
>>>> can't do anything. I could have faith that I won't die from cancer, but
>>>> that won't stop me dying unless something happens to prevent me from
dying.
>>> Bad example; you have no effective control over whether you
>>> die of cancer. You *do* have control, however, over how you
>>> act, and that can be influenced by what you believe. And
>>> without evidence that what you believe is correct that's
>>> *all* you have.
>>>
>>>>>> *Any* faith can change peoples' lives, even faiths
>>>>>> which are contradictory to each other, which would not be
>>>>>> possible if one faith were "true" and the others "false",
>>>>>> and only the "true" one worked for the change.
>>>> I need to know what you're talking about. we need specific examples.
>>> Sure. Take any two religions, Catholicism and Islam. Belief
>>> in each can affect how their adherents act, and those acts
>>> are emphatically *not* identical, just as the tenets of the
>>> two religions aren't. Since only one (at most) can be
>>> correct, but both cause their respective believers to act in
>>> certain *different* ways, at least one of them is causing
>>> actions solely on the basis of incorrect belief.
>> Probably all of them are to varying degrees. The similarity between
all of
>> them is that they encourage people to try to establish a relationship with
God
>> REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT HIM OR HOW THEY REFER TO HIM. That's
one of
>> the starting lines you atheists can't get as "far" as even though I've
pointed
>> it out for you countless times.
>
>indeed
A similar one is the fact that they can't comprehend that if there is a God
associated with Earth, there are a number of differing beliefs about him and
ways people have of referring to him.
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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