XPost: alt.agnosticism, alt.athiesm, alt.talk.creationism   
   XPost: sci.skeptic   
   From: me@nothere.biz   
      
   On 11-January-2015 9:19 PM, grabber wrote:   
   > On 11/01/2015 04:24, felix_unger wrote:   
   >> On 06-January-2015 10:20 PM, Malte Runz wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> "felix_unger"  skrev i meddelelsen   
   >>> news:cgeitjFjt09U1@mid.individual.net...   
   >>>>   
   >>>> On 30-December-2014 1:27 PM, Malte Runz wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>> > "felix_unger"  skrev i meddelelsen >   
   >>>> news:cgdpvbFdtgnU1@mid.individual.net...   
   >>>> >   
   >>>> > (snip)   
   >>>> >   
   >>>> >> ... atheists cannot prove God does not exist, you can only believe   
   >>>> it >> to be the case, and so you have faith that belief is correct.   
   >>>> >   
   >>>> > And so do you, have faith, when you believe in the non-existence of   
   >>>> > invisible pink unicorns in a parallel universe, right?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I have faith (confidence) in a belief that such a proposition is   
   >>>> nonsense is true   
   >>>   
   >>> And I have confidence that there are no gods. Now, would you say that   
   >>> a theist also has "confidence" in the existence of a particular god?   
   >>   
   >> of course. religious belief is based on faith not proof.   
   >>   
   >>> Or is his faith different from the 'faith=confidence'?   
   >>   
   >> no.   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> >   
   >>>> > I don't believe we're all brains soaking in pods in a matrix,   
   >>>> either, > even if I can't prove it, and it doesn't take faith to not   
   >>>> believe it. I > live my life, as if we aren't 'soakers' and as if   
   >>>> there are no gods. All > three possibilites are equally absurd, and   
   >>>> to make it a question about > faith shows a lack of understanding.   
   >>>> >   
   >>>> > But... why can't you and so many of the, openly, theistic minded, >   
   >>>> understand that it does not take faith to not believe in something, >   
   >>>> which takes faith to have belief in the existence of?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> it doesn't take faith to not believe, ...   
   >>>   
   >>> So lack of belief in gods doesn't take faith. Great.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>> ... but it takes faith to believe that a belief is correct/true.   
   >>>   
   >>> You believe that it is true that there are no pink invisible unicorns.   
   >>> Is your belief utterly faithbased or are you letting a little sliver   
   >>> of rational thinking creep in and help you form an opinion?   
   >>   
   >> it's both faith and reason, but in this case 99.9% reason   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>> ... ie.. one has faith that ones belief is correct. Is it not so?   
   >>>   
   >>> I believe that a tiger will not appear out of the blue in my bathroom   
   >>> when I go to brush my teeth. It is not a question of faith.   
   >>   
   >> it's a belief that you have, if you happen to think that. it's also   
   >> something that you happen to believe is true. to say you have faith that   
   >> your belief is correct is just another way of saying that. but in this   
   >> instance the amount of 'faith' in your belief is miniscule since you   
   >> already know that it can't happen. so we could say that for all intents   
   >> and purpose, there is really no faith involved. however, if your   
   >> bathroom were in a thatched bungalow in the African jungle, where tigers   
   >> are know to roam, that had only open unglazed windows, you would need to   
   >> have a great deal more faith that any such belief was correct. this is   
   >> the problem with you atheists. you see everything in black and white,   
   >> and fail to consider each case or situation on it's merits. it's also   
   >> the reason that I keep saying you lack common sense.   
   >>   
   >>> I believe that the airplane, I'm sitting in, will take off and fly me   
   >>> to my destination. No faith needed there, either.   
   >>   
   >> if you have such a belief I would say it's completely unjustified.   
   >> planes crash during takeoff or flight, or when landing. you certainly   
   >> need faith to believe it won't happen! you could argue that the amount   
   >> of faith you need is small, due the the likelihood of the plane coming   
   >> to grief in some manner being very small based on airline crash   
   >> statistics, but you cannot know that your plane will not crash, so you   
   >> have to have faith that your belief that it won't crash is correct.   
   >>   
   >>>   Call it 'faith=confidence' if you like, but don't equate it with the   
   >>> faith of the theist that there is a god.   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >> I don't understand what you mean. faith is faith.   
   >>   
   >>   
   > What you have discovered here is that "evidence" isn't the only word   
   > that you want to use differently than do at least some other people   
   > here. "Belief" and "faith" turn out to be also in that category, at   
   > least while you're talking to Malte.   
   >   
   > It's clear that Malte is happy to say he "believes" things that he   
   > knows are probable rather than certain: it seems you are not.   
   >   
   > It's also clear that Malte is capable of distinguishing between   
   > "faith" meaning a high degree of confidence in a belief, and "faith"   
   > referring to a belief held in the absence of sufficient evidence. It   
   > seems you are either unable or unwilling to make this discussion.   
   >   
   > It's not surprising that you find you can't agree with people if you   
   > don't establish shared understandings of the words you want to use.   
      
   all beliefs require a degree of faith in their veracity. not my fault if   
   he doesn't understand that   
      
   >   
   > (As an aside, I note that you think tigers roam wild in Africa. You   
   > might want to check this out).   
      
   It was just a hypothetical example to illustrate a point. I prefixed it   
   with 'if'   
      
   --   
   rgds,   
      
   Pete   
   -------   
      
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