XPost: alt.religion.scientology, alt.suicide.holiday   
   From: twicebroken@hotmail.com   
      
   "Barbara Schwarz"  wrote in message   
   news:1111630618.403223.59580@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...   
   > I believe that people can be very crazy but don't agree with   
   > psychiatric definitions. I saw psychs in action messing up people,   
   > including my own life and kidneys.   
      
   You don't agree with psychiatric definitions, yet you give credibility to   
   the psychiatrists who put these stupid labels on Michael Schiavo?   
      
   > They held me against my will to medicate my religion out of me. They   
   > are nuts.   
      
   Okay, but what does this have to do with what we're talking about?   
      
   > I am posting about my own experiences. The drugs that they gave me   
   > against my will where from hell. It was medical rape.   
      
   Again, what does that have to do with what we're talking about?   
      
   > I am very sorry about what happend to Lisa. I read the police report   
   > about her. A police officer interviewed her roommate and she said that   
   > Lisa was fine, till she left to a hotel in Orlando which had nothing to   
   > do with Scientology. I think that she was messed up in there, probably   
   > hypnotized and sent back to the SCN programmed to die in there.   
      
   "Programmed" to die? What are you talking about?   
      
   > Non-scientological infiltrators played in the hands of those and did   
   > not call the physican to check her vital signs.   
   >   
   > And as far as the celebs are concerned, just like any other people you   
   > should met them before you pass judgment.   
      
   > There is an afterlife, and Ron does not chuckle about bad things. He   
   > was good, you are falling for false stories about him.   
      
   How can you be sure there's an afterlife? Also, did you know L. Ron Hubbard   
   personally? And I think it's you Scientologists who are believing false   
   stories about him.   
      
   > There are non-scientological infiltrators in the Scientology orgs, but   
   > the religion Scientology is everything else but corrupt.   
   >   
   >> You don't seem like you're a stupid person, Barbara.   
   > At least you got that one right.   
   >   
   >>Why do you buy   
   >> into this shit?   
   >   
   > You got that wrong, I don't buy in anything. I made my own experiences   
   > with psychs and the drugs, that is why I am so outraged.   
      
   Again, what does this have to do with what we're talking about?   
      
   > Moreover, I am not the SCN organization. I am a private Scientologist,   
   > I have not seen Scientology posting about that Schiavo case. Newzforyou   
   > is a poster critical of psychiatry. He may be a Scientologist but could   
   > be also somebody else who is critical about it. Scientologists are not   
   > the only critics of psychs.   
      
   Where did I imply that only Scientologists are the only ones critical of   
   psychiatry? I too am critical of psychiatry, but I think it's quite clear   
   that I'm NOT a Scientologist.   
      
   >   
   >> No, the psychiatric drugs he may or may not be on (this source is,   
   > uh,   
   >> not exactly what I would call unbiased)would make him "want his wife   
   >> dead."   
   >   
   > I made personal experience that personalities change with these drugs,   
   > and I have seen normal people going to zombies in the hands of psychs.   
      
   Anecdotal evidence.   
      
   >>Psychiatric drugs _can_ be dangerous (any drug is potentially   
   >> dangerous--duh), and they can alter a person's personality in some   
   > ways   
   >> (e.g, making one a little "numb" emotionally), but the change is not   
   >> nearly as drastic as alarmists like yourself claim.   
   >   
   > Oh really? That is not what I saw with my eyes. The Germans held me   
   > against my will for eight months in one of their institutions to force   
   > me to give up my belief. Don't lecture me on psychs, Twice Broken, as   
   > if somebody knows them, it is me!   
      
   I don't doubt they held you against your will; psychiatry is by nature   
   coercive. What I do doubt, though, is that they tried to change your   
   religious beliefs. More likely than not, this is _your_ interpretation of   
   what they were trying to do to you. I'm not lecturing you on psychiatrists.   
      
   >>   
   >> Terri Schiavo is in a PVS (persistent vegetative state); there is no   
   >> hope of recovery.   
   > And who are you to make that statement? What are your credentials? Do   
   > you know that there are just as much experts who say that she can   
   > improve and is no vegetable?   
   >   
   >>She will never again be the person she once was.   
   >   
   > That might be right, but she could probably recover to express if she   
   > wants to live or die.   
      
   No, she will never express any desires again.   
      
   >> Biologically speaking, she is alive, but what good is mere biological   
   >> existence?   
   >   
   > What makes you sure that she does not want to be with her family for   
   > more years? She seem to recognize them, and I heard her on tape   
   > responding with noise to her dad.   
      
   She has no desires. The person is gone, but the body remains. The following   
   comes from the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke:   
   "Individuals in such a state [PVS] have lost their thinking abilities and   
   awareness of their surroudings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal   
   sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose   
   their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and   
   circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and   
   the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even   
   occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent   
   vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and and are   
   unable to respond to commands."   
      
   >   
   >>Wouldn't the most humane thing to do at this point be to let   
   >> nature take its course? When a dog is hit by a car and is severely   
   >> wounded and there is no chance of recovery, it's euthanized. If we   
   > can   
   >> treat our pets in such a humane way, why can't we treat people that   
   >> way, too?   
   >   
   > People are no dogs. Terry's parents asked for another team of experts   
   > to review what the others did as there are contradictory data as to her   
   > state. What is the hurry to kill her by drying her out? It is barbaric.   
   > They are more humane with the dogs by letting her die such a slow   
   > death.   
      
   I didn't say people are dogs. I said if we treat our suffering dogs in such   
   a humane manner, we should also do the same with our fellow human beings.   
      
   > How do you know that she feels no pain? She can mourn, she can smile,   
   > she can look around, that is too much life for me to be just a   
   > vegetable.   
      
    Did I say she felt no pain? I don't think I did. Your opinion doesn't   
   matter. I'm more willing to accept the opinion of a neurologist than that of   
   a Usenet kook.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)