XPost: sci.med.diseases.lyme, alt.support.autism, alt.support.ch   
   ld-protective-services   
   From: kdu7@cheese-a-phone.commmmmmm   
      
   kane_pohaku@yahoo.com wrote:   
   > Hussin wrote:   
   >> kane_pohaku@yahoo.com wrote:   
   >>> Hussin wrote:   
   >>>> WitchWirsen wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Better that 10 guilty go free, than one innocent suffer.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Yeah, so that the 10 guilty can find more victims, and instead of   
   >>>>> the ten original they have twenty, then thiry, and so on.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> You are preying on people's fears. Government should not have the   
   >>>> power to lock up anyone for any amount of time without any due   
   >>>> process whatsoever.   
   >>>   
   >>> That has nothing to do with the Blackstone quote. It refers to due   
   >>> process. You are referring to lack of it.   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >> It had everything to do with it.   
   >   
   > Nonsense. It has to do with errors in prosecution and defense.   
   >   
   >> You're advocating a process that presumes a   
   >> accused person guilty unless proven otherwise with your statement   
   >> above suggesting that the 10 guilty can find more victims. That is   
   >> preying on the fears of people.   
   >   
   > That is total nonsense. Blackstones quote has nothing whatsoever to do   
   > with due process, and everything to do with errors IN due process.   
   > It's not about charging and convicting WITHOUT due process.   
   >   
      
   It has to do with keeping innocent people from being punished.   
      
   >>>> If   
   >>>> you disagree, just remember Nazi Germany, the old Soviet Union, Red   
   >>>> China and many other authoritarian regimes that never allowed due   
   >>>> process rights.   
   >>>   
   >>> Let me know when no one has due process rights in the US.   
   >>   
   >> It's happening now.   
   >   
   > Yaddahdahyaddahdah   
      
   ???   
      
   >   
   > Of course it's happening now. The scale please?   
   >   
      
   The scale doesn't matter. It is a great injustice that it happens at all.   
      
   >> Ever heard of the USA PATRIOT Act   
   >   
   > Yep.   
   >   
   >> that gives the   
   >> government power to spy on citizens without any cause?   
   >   
   > Nope.   
   >   
      
   Actually it does. They can find out what books you read and you would never   
   know. They can also sneak and peak into your home just to see if you might   
   be a terrorist. Reasons for the search can be kept secret. Like I said, it's   
   a great tool for a government that wants to silence its critics.   
      
   >> What about the   
   >> thousands of people that were detained in the hysteria that followed   
   >> 9/11?   
   >   
   > What about them? Mostly foreign nationals.   
      
   Not all are foreign nationals and since when do due process rights apply   
   only to citizens? Also, more US citizens are being detained without evidence   
   or charges. The idea of calling it war is just a convenient excuse that Bush   
   is using to justify it. In addition to the USA PATRIOT Act, the proposed   
   Domestic Security Enhancement act in one version would allow the Attorney   
   General to designate US citizens as terrorists and take their citizenship   
   away. This would apply even to natural-born citizens. These laws certainly   
   provide good tools for any government to silence its critics. No dissent.   
   Just like in red China.   
      
   >   
   >> Many of them still have neither been charged with any crime nor   
   >> released.   
   >   
   > How many? Guantanamo is emptying out. Without even seeing a courtroom   
   > many have been released.   
   >   
      
   They should all either be charged and tried or released. And let's not have   
   any of that secret evidence either. You can't defend against an unknown.   
      
   >> Where is due process there?   
   >   
   > When has there been a requirement for it in Internationally based   
   > attacks on US soil? It's a war.   
   >   
   >>>> It's slowly becoming like that in the US. The government under   
   >>>> Clinton and Bush has used and still uses fear to acquire more and   
   >>>> more power at the expense of the people.   
   >>>   
   >>> It has it's limits.   
   >>   
   >> Ok. What are they?   
   >   
   > This is a war. Not a criminal trial. It's disgusting that you'd try to   
   > portray it as such.   
   >   
      
   Rounding up people who happen to appear Middle-Eastern is not going to win   
   anything. Since 9/11, Bush has managed to destroy the sympathy shown us by   
   the rest of the world and just created more enemies for us. That's hardly   
   the way to make America safer.   
      
   >>>   
   >>> Are you suggesting that there are not enemies of the US? Back as   
   >>> long ago as 1987 I was snarled at repeatedly as a Meguo in Taipei   
   >>> of all places. A supposed ally that we in fact have protected and   
   >>> supported for decades. Since I understand and speak some Mandarin I   
   >>> had interesting conversations with those that hate us. They are   
   >>> victims of propaganda. And it's certainly borne fruit.   
   >>>   
   >>> Or do you think that 9-11 was an anomaly?   
   >>   
   >> My own opinion is that as horrible as it was, it was brought about   
   >> by years of arrogant US foreign policy all over the world.   
   >   
   > Yes, I refer to it as Aunt Jemima attitude.   
      
   So you agree that US foriegn policy is arrogant.   
      
   > Pouring money like maple   
   > syrup out into the world for foreign aide. Sending our own people via   
   > peace corp. Building the infrastructure of other countries, and many   
   > of those receiving such largesse allowing their extremists to march   
   > in the streets and burn effigies of our leaders and babble lying   
   > propaganda.   
   >   
   >> The US should simply stay   
   >> out of the affairs of other countries and certainly should not   
   >> support regimes all over the world that oppress their people.   
   >   
   > Or regimes that don't? So which is it. We DON'T support or we DO   
   > support?   
   >   
      
   Re-read what I said. We should take George Washington's advice and stay out   
   of the political affairs of other countries. That means not supporting their   
   governments.   
      
   >>>> "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger   
   >>>> leads to hate. And hate leads to suffering."   
   >>>   
   >>> Then we should not fear or be angry at those that committed the   
   >>> atrocity of 9-11, or the previous Trade Center bombing, both done by   
   >>> people in conspiracy with each other. I'll be sure and give Bin   
   >>> Laden your name so he can personally thank you one day.   
   >>   
   >> As Bush said, the 9/11 attacks were an attack on our freedom and our   
   >> way of life. If we give up freedom out of fear of terrorists, they   
   >> win.   
   >   
   > We've had to do this before. WWII being a good example. Want to know   
   > the real secret behind the internment camps, that are so public an   
   > image of our denial of civil rights?   
   >   
   > There WERE in fact American citizens of Japanese ancestry that did in   
   > fact spy and attempt to spy for Japan. Both before and after Pearl   
   > Harbor.   
   >   
   > http://tinyurl.com/dw48n   
   >   
   > Were there innocent Japanese interred? Of course. But given the scale   
   > of the threat, rather like the suprize attack on Pearl Harbor and the   
   > surprize attack on the twin towers, it is any suprize that such action   
   > was taken?   
   >   
   > I have friends, highly valued, that spent their time in the camps.   
   > Many understood the need and were true patriots. Others were pissed.   
   > Others were spies.   
   >   
      
      
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