XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, alt.animals.dog, rec.pets.dogs.behavior   
   From: someguy@ph.con   
      
   Fuckwit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:   
      
   > On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 Rudy Canoza wrote:   
      
   I didn't write it, Fuckwit-the-convict.  Some expert   
   did, and I posted it.   
      
      
   >>Consider the mental life of a dog, for example.   
   >>Presumably, dogs have a rich array of experiences (they   
   >>feel pain and pleasure, the tree has a particular   
   >>"look" to it) and they may even have beliefs about the   
   >>world (Fido believes that his supper dish is empty).   
   >>Who knows, they may even have special "inner   
   >>experiences" that accompany those beliefs. However, if   
   >>we assume that dogs are not self-aware in the stronger   
   >>sense,   
   >   
   >   
   > we still have no reason to believe they are not self aware   
   > to some extent.   
      
   We do have:  they give no evidence of it.  Your belief   
   that they are is wishful thinking.   
      
      
   >>then they will lack the ability to critically   
   >>reflect upon their beliefs and experiences   
   >   
   >   
   >     Which is obviously not the case,   
      
   Which IS the case.   
      
      
   >>and thus   
   >>will be unable to have other beliefs about their   
   >>pleasure or their supper-dish-belief (what philosophers   
   >>call "second-order beliefs" or "meta-beliefs"). That is   
   >>to say, they may lack the ability to judge that   
   >>pleasure may be an unworthy objective in a certain   
   >>situation   
   >   
   >   
   >     Which has absolutely  nothing to do with whether or not   
   > they are aware of themselves.   
      
   Yes, Fuckwit-the-convict, it does have a LOT to do with   
   it.  That ability is a fundamental part of what the   
   experts consider self awareness to be.   
      
      
   >>or to judge that their belief that the supper   
   >>dish is empty is unjustified.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)