XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, alt.animals.dog, rec.pets.dogs.behavior   
      
   On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 19:49:07 GMT, Barry Blust    
   wrote:   
      
   >Let's try to understand the meaning of awareness and its difference from   
   >knowing, instincts and learned behaviors.   
   >   
   >Dogs smell and hear and taste and jump above tall grass and disregard   
   >pain sometimes and roll over to say "I give up" because of instincts.   
   >These things are the results of long term and short term evolution... and   
   >have nothing to do with awareness.   
      
       I believe they have much to do with evolution, and also that evolution   
   has much to do with what animals are and are not aware of, so I don't   
   believe you. In fact I believe the direct opposite of you. You believe   
   evolution and what animals are aware of, never have anything to do   
   with each other. I believe that in some cases they are synergistic.   
   I believe those who were *more* aware could understand to jump up,   
   and at some point that awareness apparently became significant to the   
   survival of their ancestors....those who didn't understand didn't reproduce.   
      
   >A Doxie is a smell/sight hunter... he will always go to ground first and   
   >if finding no scent will use his eyes... because he is small he will   
   >jump... if he did not do these things, if his ancestors did not do these   
   >things, the breed and those qualities would not exist.   
      
       If a dog is not aware that it can see, why do you think it jumps up   
   above tall grass so it can see? Just saying "evolution" is a cop-out   
   answer. Something causes the dog to decided on that course of   
   action in those particular conditions. The most obvious cause is   
   that it's aware that it can see. If you say that's not it, you have to   
   come up with something better than a cop-out like "it's evolution".   
   The characteristic only evolved *because* they were/are aware   
   of being able to see. It should be even more obvious to someone   
   who has seen dogs doing it. It sure didn't take me long to figure   
   out what my dog was doing, and why. After learning about it I used   
   to make him "stay" next to a tall field, then I'd sneak out and hide   
   in the grass, then call him once. It was a game we played, and it   
   was really funny to see him jumping up trying to see me. His   
   behavior led me to believe that he enjoyed it too.   
      
   >A speedy dog will   
   >be more apt to hunt prey that runs, a tall dog would do well in   
   >grasslands, and terriers go to ground.  All survival strategies which are   
   >the product of interaction between environment and genetics.   
      
       By "environment" are you aware that you're only referring to the   
   humans who decided which dog to let screw which bitch?   
      
   [...]   
      
   >Get it yet?   
      
       You haven't explained anything. You have yet to explain why dogs   
   jump up over high grass so they can see, if they're not aware that they   
   can see. Just saying "it's evolution" is nothing, unless you want to   
   explain how the characteristic developed without any of the animals   
   involved being aware that they could see. You haven't done it. I feel   
   sure that you can't, and even more sure that it didn't happen that way.   
      
   >If not we cannot progress beyond this stumbling block.   
      
       I understand that you believe dogs are not aware that they can see.   
   As yet you've given absolutely no reason to believe you. None. Even   
   if/though you can't provide any reason that's worthy of consideration,   
   feel free to progress and I feel sure I'll be able to understand what you're   
   getting at, even if I continue to disbelieve you.   
      
   >I'm trying,   
   >   
   >Barry   
      
       Yea, me too.   
      
   >>     You have failed to explain some things:   
   >>   
   >>  If you think dogs aren't aware they can smell, why   
   >> do you think they deliberately smell?   
   >>   
   >>  If you think dogs aren't aware they can hear, why   
   >> do you think they deliberately listen?   
   >>   
   >>  If you think dogs aren't aware they can see, why   
   >> do you think they jump up above tall grass deliberately   
   >> so they can see?   
   >>   
   >> Here's a bonus failure question for you Goob:   
   >>   
   >>  Why do you think dogs are not aware that they   
   >> are in pain, when they are in pain?   
   >>   
   >> Super extra bonus failure question:   
   >>   
   >> Why do you think dogs are not aware that they   
   >> are hungry, when they are hungry?   
   >>   
   >> Is it all voodoo to you Goo?   
   >>   
      
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