XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, alt.zen, alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   XPost: alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com   
      
   Dutch wrote:   
      
   >   
   > "Fred C. Dobbs"  wrote   
   >   
   >> On 5/29/2010 12:09 AM, Dutch wrote:   
   >   
   >   
   > [..]   
   >   
   >>>>> Existence is not stressful per se, *struggling* is stressful.   
   >>>>> Existence   
   >>>>> itself, or "being", is blissful.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I wouldn't say that. Existence /per se/ has no quality   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> I don't agree, pure existence, being, is blissful by it's very nature   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> You're just restating your assertion.   
   >   
   >   
   > It's a point of view, your opinion is that "being" is by default a neutral   
   > state, mine is that it is blissful.   
   >   
   >> A boulder exists.  Is it in a state of bliss?   
   >   
   >   
   > I don't know, my impression is that boulders have no experiential   
   > existence.   
   > When a human exists he is a very different organic process than that of a   
   > rock.   
   >   
   >>>> "Bliss" is actually a very positive term - it is a state of   
   >>>> contentment.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> Not exactly. Contentment, from something like acheiving some goal,   
   >>> winning a game, attaining a degree, that is contentment derived from   
   >>> acheivement in the outside world, bliss normally refers to a state   
   >>> reached through sprititual practice, yoga, meditation, deeping   
   >>> breathing, acceptance, freedom from attachments, etc. It is not a native   
   >>> Western concept.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> Of *course* it's a native western concept!  The word itself has ancient   
   >> Germanic roots that predate western contact with Eastern philosophies   
   >> that   
   >> include any of the practices you describe.   
   >   
   >   
   > Never heard of that, interesting, however there is a difference between the   
   > peace one feels through the attainment of inner balance and the   
   > gratification one feels through the attainment of outward goals. The two   
   > are   
   > different but not incompatible. There's no scorecard or degree to tell the   
   > world you are peaceful, but they are aware of it nonetheless.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> Every dictionary definition available defines bliss as meaning /extreme/   
   >> joy or satisfaction.  In economics, the bliss point is the point at which   
   >> you have exactly the right amount of something you desire - your   
   >> "utility"   
   >> is at a maximum, and an epsilon less *or* more of the good would reduce   
   >> your happiness.   
   >   
   >   
   > Attainment of worldly desires leads to satisfaction/gratification, an ego   
   > boost, but that is not the same as what one derives from those practices we   
   > were talking about.   
      
   The way I've always heard and used bliss is as an extreme spiritual   
   state constituted by extreme, sometimes almost unbearable,   
   joy/pleasure/happiness.  It is usually caused only by extreme events   
   such as falling in love, intense spiritual practice or psychotropic drugs.   
      
   Even in the spiritual version most teachers will say that bliss is an   
   energetic and turbulent state and that the seeker can often get into   
   trouble by clinging to it.  It is not the final state on the spiritual   
   journey.  After letting go of the high-energy bliss, one finds the true   
   spiritual state of deep, unperturbed peace or equanimity, which is not   
   blissful in the same sense, but is still a state of extreme happiness,   
   without the intensity.  Bliss often still has an egoic self experiencing   
   the extreme pleasure, whereas deep peace is without a sense of separate   
   self.   
      
   Bliss can become a kind of spiritual masturbatory state if it is the   
   product of craving.  One becomes totally involved in feeling good.  On   
   the other hand, it doesn't have to be that way.  One can feel good and   
   focus on others and transmit joy to them through the overflow and that   
   is a very different experience which is more likely to transmute into   
   the peaceful, selfless state naturally.   
      
   Robert   
      
   = = = = = = = = = =   
      
   >   
   >> Synonyms of bliss are beatitude, blessedness, cheer, cheerfulness,   
   >> felicity, gladness, happiness, joy, joyfulness; antonyms are grief,   
   >> misery, sorrow, unhappiness, upset.   
   >>   
   >> Existence is not bliss - not in any widely accepted meaning of the word   
   >> bliss.  Existence is neutral, but it is a condition necessary to   
   >   
   >   
   > Maybe it would be more clear if I used the word "being" or "living" instead   
   > of existence.   
   >   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>> The events and circumstances of existence will determine whether your   
   >>>> existence is miserable, blah, blissful, or some other gradation.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> Yeah, we're not talkin about the same thing, "bliss" is not goal   
   >>> oriented happiness, it's more like inner peace.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> It isn't.  Look in any dictionary you wish.  You are giving the word a   
   >> meaning that 99% of English speakers who know the word do not recognize.   
   >   
   >   
   > Maybe "bliss" *can* be used in the other contexts, but I have heard it used   
   > most often to refer to a spiritual connectedness as opposed to the feeling   
   > one gets by hitting a long drive or winning a poker tournament.Wikipedia   
   > says "Bliss is a constant state of mind undisturbed by gain or loss." which   
   > suggests that it is not usually used to refer to the satisfaction or   
   > happiness derived from attaining worldy acheivements.   
   >   
   >>>>> Unfortunately we are programmed from an   
   >>>>> early age to believe that just being is not enough, we have to be   
   >>>>> "doing" something, "going" somewhere, "attaining" something, never   
   >>>>> content with what we have, where we are, what we are.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I think that's human nature - nothing to do with programming. "Just   
   >>>> being" strikes me as horrible. I constantly try to teach my son that   
   >>>> working to achieve something is the best thing in life. *Doing* is the   
   >>>> essence of human existence, and working hard to do something well is   
   >>>> the best possible way to spend time.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> Yea, you're a Western type guy. Doing useful things is good, but I do   
   >>> not believe that it is the essence of existence any more than hunting   
   >>> for prey is the essence of being a lion, or drinking in the sun is the   
   >>> essence of being a rose, it is the work a lion does to support itself,   
   >>> but the essence of a lion is seen when he sits soaking up the sun too.   
   >>> It is "being" a lion.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> Humans are purposeful beings.  We naturally aspire to more than mere   
   >> existence.  The first primitive to fashion a wheel could have told you   
   >> that.   
   >   
   >   
   > I never suggested that we are not goal oriented beings, but there is   
   > another   
   > level to human existence/consciousness that is not directly related to the   
   > attainment of goals.   
   >   
   >> I don't know anyone who wants to feel overworked, but most people would   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)