XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, alt.zen, alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   XPost: alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: niunian@ymail.com   
      
   On Sun, 30 May 2010 13:55:40 -0700, "Dutch"  wrote:   
      
   >"niunian"  wrote   
   >> On Sun, 30 May 2010 12:09:47 -0700, "Dutch"  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>"niunian"  wrote   
   >>>   
   >>>>>What I am describing is practical and real. It is taught by sports   
   >>>>>psychologists and is the basis for most spiritual practices such as   
   >>>>>Yoga,   
   >>>>>meditation or Tai Chi. It centres around being aware/present in the   
   >>>>>moment,   
   >>>>>the here and now, being IN the process, not in the thinking mind,   
   >>>>>distracted   
   >>>>>worrying about the mechanics of the swing, the rough or miss-hitting or   
   >>>>>what   
   >>>>>your score is going to be or what others are thinking about you, etc..   
   >>>>>As   
   >>>>>such it is a freeing experience, it the struggle of the ego/mind that   
   >>>>>drains   
   >>>>>your energy. The same applies in the rest of life. When I have been   
   >>>>>lucky   
   >>>>>enough to play golf or tennis or pool in this state I have always   
   >>>>>performed   
   >>>>>at the top of my abilities and ended up feeling refreshed and clear   
   >>>>>headed.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>Describe what you're talking about, so far you've been vague.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>And by the way, I love "everyday living" as much as any part of life.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I think the difference between you and me is, while you are talking   
   >>>> about how to "practice" Tai Chi, I'm talking about how to "fight" as a   
   >>>> Tai Chi master.   
   >>>   
   >>>Now you're resorting to semantics. "Practicing" as in an art or discipline   
   >>>like Tai Chi, Karate, Yoga, meditation, golf, driving a car, or medicine,   
   >>>means to perform that discipline.   
   >>   
   >> Perhaps you want to talk about art or discipline, but I'm only   
   >> interested in the practical mean to win a battle or game.   
   >   
   >I am talking about peak performance, winning is a by-product, not part of   
   >the process. You talk about "battle", that brings up the notion of   
   >adrenaline, combat, aggression, how are there these compatible with golf?   
      
   If you only want to play golf for entertainment, then winning is   
   indeed just a by-product. In that case, you can do whatever you want,   
   and it's perfectly fine with me. However, if you want to win some   
   price in golf or any other game, then it becomes a battle that you   
   must fight in order to win. Peak performance means nothing in a   
   relaxed friendly game. Peak performance is only needed in a real   
   competition.   
      
   >   
   > I think you   
   >> over complicate the issue too much with those concepts. They are not   
   >> necessary in actual battle.   
   >   
   >There are no complications, no concepts in the zone, no score, no winning or   
   >losing, only the process. It is purely the individual totally immersed in   
   >the process.   
   >   
   >These words are not the zone, they are just an admittedly imperfect way of   
   >describing it.   
      
   Well, I don't think you need to describe it or even think about it. If   
   you are fully focused in the game, you wouldn't notice any of it   
   anyway. By conceptualizing it, you only make it an unnecessary   
   distraction.   
      
   >   
   >   
   >>>> In everyday practice, what you say sounds good enough,   
   >>>> but in actual combat, it's entirely another story. The problem I'm   
   >>>> trying to raise here is, you can't fight effortlessly in an actual   
   >>>> combat. In actual combat, there is no "flow", there is no "zone", and   
   >>>> there is no time to worry about "being".   
   >>>   
   >>>I am afraid you're missing the point badly. There is a flow to life's   
   >>>energy   
   >>>and there is a zone where one is in tune with that flow and there are many   
   >>>states where one is not. The zone is a well known phenomenon. And as I   
   >>>already clearly stated, there is no "worry" in being, no time either.   
   >>>Worrying is thinking and there is no thinking in the zone.   
   >>   
   >> These are all your beliefs. They only exist because you want them to   
   >> exist.   
   >   
   >They are my beliefs for many reasons, including considerable reading and   
   >years of personal experience. The beliefs I "want to exist" as you so glibly   
   >put it, are those beliefs which fit my experience and that of those who know   
   >about the subject. If you present anything substantial to add to or modify   
   >those beliefs then I will incorporate them into those beliefs which I "want   
   >to exist".   
      
   Too bad. I want you to forget about it to become truly focused.   
      
   >   
   >   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> There is only the battle and   
   >>>> the best strategy of winning the battle. If you keep trying to get the   
   >>>> right "feeling" during a game, it's likely you are going to lose the   
   >>>> game anyway.   
   >>>   
   >>>There's no "trying" in the zone, there's no winning or losing, there is   
   >>>only   
   >>>the process.   
   >>>   
   >>>And you still have not explained what you're talking about, are you   
   >>>suggesting I need to get angry to play my best golf?   
   >>   
   >> I'm talking exactly what you are talking about which is how to reach   
   >> the best performance in a battle or game. The only difference is, I   
   >> don't need to tune in to the "zone", and I do need to invest great   
   >> effort and concentration in order to win. To me, without effort means   
   >> without the will power. Without will power, nothing is going to   
   >> happen.   
   >   
   >OK, what do you mean by that? Explain in terms of say, golf. In my golf   
   >experience good golf is relaxed and effortless. Effort means tension means   
   >bad golf.   
      
   By effort, I mean mental power instead of physical power. With strong   
   effort, one becomes deeply focused in the game which often produces   
   surprising result. It simply means that concentration is the key. When   
   you have good concentration, you always perform your best no matter   
   what you do.   
      
   >   
   >>>This is an interesting subject but I really do not want it to degenerate   
   >>>into another battle of egos, where "winning" the debate becomes more   
   >>>important that the process of examining the ideas. That would be too   
   >>>ironic.   
   >>   
   >> That is never my concern. I only talk to you because I think I have my   
   >> two cents worth that you might be interested. I think if you can drop   
   >> those concepts to just concentrate, you might be able to perform even   
   >> better.   
   >   
   >What do you mean by "concentrate"? How? On what? On the ball? Keeping your   
   >head down? Keeping your right elbow in? Staying behind the ball?   
      
   Again, it's about the concentration of the mind instead of anything   
   else. It's something you must have in order to be in the "zone".   
      
   >   
   >That kind of concentration is for "practice" in the sense of getting   
   >prepared for the game, not for the game. If you simply relax, trust, allow   
   >yourself to become immersed quietly in the physical/mental process of the   
   >game of golf then maximum "concentration" will ensue, without "effort" which   
   >I read as "trying".   
   >   
      
   It's perfectly fine to be physically relaxed, but mentally speaking,   
   one needs to be alert and ready. That requires concentration.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)