XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, alt.zen, alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   XPost: alt.philosophy.zen   
   From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com   
      
   Dutch wrote:   
      
   >   
   > "halfawake"  wrote in message   
   > news:htuecp$rv3$1@news.eternal-september.org...   
   >   
   >> Dutch wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>> "Fred C. Dobbs"  wrote   
   >>>   
   >>>> On 5/29/2010 12:09 AM, Dutch wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> [..]   
   >>>   
   >>>>>>> Existence is not stressful per se, *struggling* is stressful.   
   >>>>>>> Existence   
   >>>>>>> itself, or "being", is blissful.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> I wouldn't say that. Existence /per se/ has no quality   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> I don't agree, pure existence, being, is blissful by it's very nature   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> You're just restating your assertion.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> It's a point of view, your opinion is that "being" is by default a   
   >>> neutral   
   >>> state, mine is that it is blissful.   
   >>>   
   >>>> A boulder exists.  Is it in a state of bliss?   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> I don't know, my impression is that boulders have no experiential   
   >>> existence.   
   >>> When a human exists he is a very different organic process than that   
   >>> of a   
   >>> rock.   
   >>>   
   >>>>>> "Bliss" is actually a very positive term - it is a state of   
   >>>>>> contentment.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Not exactly. Contentment, from something like acheiving some goal,   
   >>>>> winning a game, attaining a degree, that is contentment derived from   
   >>>>> acheivement in the outside world, bliss normally refers to a state   
   >>>>> reached through sprititual practice, yoga, meditation, deeping   
   >>>>> breathing, acceptance, freedom from attachments, etc. It is not a   
   >>>>> native   
   >>>>> Western concept.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Of *course* it's a native western concept!  The word itself has ancient   
   >>>> Germanic roots that predate western contact with Eastern   
   >>>> philosophies that   
   >>>> include any of the practices you describe.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> Never heard of that, interesting, however there is a difference   
   >>> between the   
   >>> peace one feels through the attainment of inner balance and the   
   >>> gratification one feels through the attainment of outward goals. The   
   >>> two are   
   >>> different but not incompatible. There's no scorecard or degree to   
   >>> tell the   
   >>> world you are peaceful, but they are aware of it nonetheless.   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Every dictionary definition available defines bliss as meaning   
   >>>> /extreme/   
   >>>> joy or satisfaction.  In economics, the bliss point is the point at   
   >>>> which   
   >>>> you have exactly the right amount of something you desire - your   
   >>>> "utility"   
   >>>> is at a maximum, and an epsilon less *or* more of the good would reduce   
   >>>> your happiness.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> Attainment of worldly desires leads to satisfaction/gratification, an   
   >>> ego   
   >>> boost, but that is not the same as what one derives from those   
   >>> practices we   
   >>> were talking about.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> The way I've always heard and used bliss is as an extreme spiritual   
   >> state constituted by extreme, sometimes almost unbearable,   
   >> joy/pleasure/happiness.  It is usually caused only by extreme events   
   >> such as falling in love, intense spiritual practice or psychotropic   
   >> drugs.   
   >>   
   >> Even in the spiritual version most teachers will say that bliss is an   
   >> energetic and turbulent state and that the seeker can often get into   
   >> trouble by clinging to it.  It is not the final state on the spiritual   
   >> journey.  After letting go of the high-energy bliss, one finds the   
   >> true spiritual state of deep, unperturbed peace or equanimity, which   
   >> is not blissful in the same sense, but is still a state of extreme   
   >> happiness, without the intensity.  Bliss often still has an egoic self   
   >> experiencing the extreme pleasure, whereas deep peace is without a   
   >> sense of separate self.   
   >>   
   >> Bliss can become a kind of spiritual masturbatory state if it is the   
   >> product of craving.  One becomes totally involved in feeling good.  On   
   >> the other hand, it doesn't have to be that way.  One can feel good and   
   >> focus on others and transmit joy to them through the overflow and that   
   >> is a very different experience which is more likely to transmute into   
   >> the peaceful, selfless state naturally.   
   >>   
   >> Robert   
   >>   
   >> = = = = = = = = = =   
   >   
   >   
   > That's interesting Robert, I was not familiar with that definition of   
   > "bliss", it's not a word I often use. The practical sprititual practice   
   > I have been most involved with centers primarily around quieting of mind   
   > chatter and living in the present moment. I don't know where that fits   
   > into the "spiritual path" but it has more to do with internal peace than   
   > any kind of excitement.   
   >   
   > [..]   
   >   
      
   That is a common and sensible form of spiritual practice.  Seeking inner   
   peace and equanimity is probably the most "correct" path there is, since   
   the end point of spiritual growth is a state of peace, openness, balance   
   and harmony with surrounding conditions and circumstances.  I just don't   
   think "bliss" will always be understood to denote a peaceful state,   
   rather than a highly energized happy state, which can also represent an   
   aspect of the spiritual path, but can also get overblown if the ego   
   takes over.   
      
   Here's a definition of blissful:  "Extremely happy; full of joy..."   
   I'm not saying that's a bad thing...   
      
   Robert   
      
   = = = = = = = =   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)