XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, talk.politics.animals, alt   
   food.vegan.science   
   From: me@privacy.net   
      
   On 05/03/2012 17:49, George Plimpton wrote:   
   > On 3/5/2012 9:36 AM, Glen wrote:   
   >> On 05/03/2012 15:42, George Plimpton wrote:   
   >>> On 3/4/2012 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:   
   >> snip   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I don't believe that I have any way of knowing how the number of   
   >>>> premature deaths caused per calorically equivalent serving of tofu   
   >>>> compares with that for grass-fed beef or wild-caught fish.   
   >>>   
   >>> You know, intuitively and based on plausibility, that raising the   
   >>> vegetable crops you would have to substitute in order to get equivalent   
   >>> nutrition causes multiple CDs,and that 100% grass-fed beef or   
   >>> wild-caught fish causes none.   
   >>   
   >> Eating meat causes the death of animals.   
   >   
   > Cultivating, harvesting and distributing vegetables and fruits causes   
   > the deaths of animals, too.   
      
   That isn't true. It /may/ cause some deaths but it isn't a fact that   
   it *WILL* cause them. Eating meat *WILL* cause them.   
      
   >> There's no getting away   
   >> from that fact until you stop eating meat and go vegan.   
   >   
   > "Going 'vegan'" doesn't mean causing no deaths of animals.   
      
   It will mean causing no deaths to farm animals. That's a fact.   
      
   >> There's only a small chance that animals were killed to produce my food.   
   >   
   > There is a 100% certainty that animals were harmed, including being   
   > killed, in order to produce your food.   
      
   No. I don't believe you. You're only saying that because you   
   want me to feel as guilty as you obviously do about the cruelty   
   and death on your plate.   
      
   >> You don't want to acknowledge the huge difference between fact   
   >   
   > You have presented no "fact" that warrants any examination.   
      
   It's a fact that eating meat causes the death of animals. It's not   
   a fact that eating vegetables and fruit causes the death of animals.   
      
   >> and plausibility because you want to make vegans feel as guilty   
   >> as you do for all the pain, misery and death on your plate.   
   >   
   > No   
      
   Yes. I've seen this argument before from corpse eaters trying to   
   defend their cruelty by saying, "We're all killers, so leave me alone."   
   The deaths you cause are a necessary fact and unavoidable. The   
   deaths I /might/ cause are, by your own word, only "plausible" and   
   not a fact at all.   
      
   If driving my car always caused misery and death I wouldn't   
   drive. If driving my car held only the plausible chance of misery   
   and death, like it does, I would still drive. The difference between   
   doing something which always causes death and something which   
   only plausibly causes death is huge. You know it is but you'll never   
   admit to it because your guilt stops you.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)