XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, talk.politics.animals, alt   
   food.vegan.science   
   From: me@privacy.net   
      
   On 07/03/2012 20:10, George Plimpton wrote:   
   > "glen" or "mark" or "little cocksucker" - friend of Lesley Simon, the   
   > Whore of Ballaghaderreen, County Roscommon - bullshitted:   
   >   
   >> On 07/03/2012 19:29, George Plimpton wrote:   
   >>> On 3/7/2012 11:26 AM, Derek wrote:   
   >>>> On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 11:14:24 -0800, George Plimpton   
   >>>> wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On 3/7/2012 10:51 AM, Derek wrote:   
   >>>>>> On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 10:42:47 -0800, George Plimpton   
   >>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On 3/7/2012 10:39 AM, Derek wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 10:20:16 -0800, George   
   >>>>>>>> Plimpton  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> On 3/7/2012 10:01 AM, Derek wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 09:20:03 -0800, George   
   >>>>>>>>>> Plimpton  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/7/2012 9:01 AM, Derek wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 08:42:45 -0800, George   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Plimpton  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/7/2012 6:03 AM, Derek wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 13:45:21 -0800, George   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Plimpton  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2012 1:09 PM, Derek wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 11:04:01 -0800, George   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Plimpton  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2012 10:25 AM, Derek wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 12:35:28 +0000,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glen  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/03/2012 03:35, George Plimpton wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are? So, if you admit that *some* of your   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetables cause animal   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> death - and they do - then you're a murderer, right?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. If I personally killed them or paid a food   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> producer to kill them   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on my behalf then yes I would be a murderer like you.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I or rather   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Derek explained this to you last time I was here.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meat eaters who fail to justify the deaths accrued   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> production of their food often try to head off any   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criticism from   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegans by demanding that they too must accept   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liability for the deaths   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accrued during the production of their food. Farmers,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they say, who   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kill animals collaterally while producing vegetables,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are under the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employ of vegetarians, just as farmers who kill   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals to produce   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meat are under the employ of meat eaters. The   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liability for these   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal deaths in both food groups is identical, they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say, and the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan therefore has no grounds for criticising the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meat eater. But   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is a dishonest argument which relies on ignoring   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the relationship   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between the consumer (employer) and the farmer   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (employee). Unlike the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> servant or agent who acts directly under his   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employer's dictates, the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> farmer is an independent contractor who carries out   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his job according   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to his own method. From Wiki;   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Historical tests centered around finding control   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between a supposed   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employer and an employee, in a form of master and servant   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship. The roots for such a test can be found   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Yewens v   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Noakes, where Bramwell LJ stated that:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "...a servant is a person who is subject to the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> command of his   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> master as to the manner in which he shall do his work."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The control test effectively imposed liability where   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an employer   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictated both what work was to be done, and how it was   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be done.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is aptly suited for situations where precise   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructions are   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given by an employer; it can clearly be seen that the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employer is the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> causal link for any harm which follows. If on the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other hand an   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employer does not determine how an act should be   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carried out, then the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship would instead be one of employer and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> independent   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contractor. This distinction was explained by Slesser LJ:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "It is well established as a general rule of English   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> law that an   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employer is not liable for the acts of his independent   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contractor in   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same way as he is for the acts of his servants or   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agents, even   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though these acts are done in carrying out the work   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for his benefit   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under the contract. The determination whether the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual wrongdoer is   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a servant or agent on the one hand or an independent   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contractor on the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other depends on whether or not the employer not only   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determines what   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to be done, but retains the control of the actual   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performance, in   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which case the doer is a servant or agent; but if the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employer, while   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prescribing the work to be done, leaves the manner of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing it to the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control of the doer, the latter is an independent   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contractor."]   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarious_liabi   
   ity_in_English_law   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike the meat eater who demands the death of animals   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for his food,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegans do not command their employers to kill animals   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the   
      
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