XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, alt.agnosticism, alt.atheism   
   XPost: sci.skeptic   
      
   On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:39:09 -0700, Dutch  wrote:   
      
   >Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:   
   >   
   >> The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a   
   >> normal life experience for most people.  The problem is that many food   
   >> animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort   
   >> and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.   
   >   
   >I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not part   
   >of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He tries to   
   >make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his smokescreens.   
      
       That's a blatant lie since I refer to animals who have lives of negative   
   value as well as those of positive value.   
      
   >The   
   >crux if his position is that users of animals and animal products should   
   >take pride in the fact that those animals "get to experience life"   
      
       Try presenting some example of me telling people they should take pride in   
   it. You can't meaning that you lied again, which is pretty much what you do. I   
   DO encourage people to give the animals' lives as much or more consideration   
   than their deaths though, which eliminationists hate because and only because   
   doing so works against the elimination objective.   
      
   >and   
   >conversely vegans ("eliminationists") as he calls them) do not sponsor   
   >animals getting to experience life.   
      
     · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of   
   wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of   
   buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.   
   What they try to avoid are products which provide life   
   (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have   
   to avoid the following items containing animal by-products   
   in order to be successful:   
      
   tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water   
   filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,   
   insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,   
   heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,   
   gelatin capsules,  adhesive tape, laminated wood products,   
   plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane   
   wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings   
      
       The meat industry provides life for the animals that it   
   slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it   
   as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for   
   their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume   
   animal products from animals they think are raised in decent   
   ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the   
   future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for   
   livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious   
   consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by   
   being vegan.   
       From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised   
   steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people   
   get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well   
   over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people   
   get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm   
   machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and   
   draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is   
   likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings   
   derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products   
   contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and   
   better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)