c45eafc4   
   XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, rec.sport.football.college,   
   rec.food.cooking   
   XPost: alt.gothic   
   From: rupertmccallum@yahoo.com   
      
   On Oct 17, 10:55 pm, George Plimpton  wrote:   
   > On 10/17/2012 1:06 AM, Rupert wrote:   
   >   
   > >>>>> In this thread I just   
   > >>>>> said that my veganism was motivated by a desire to do something to   
   > >>>>> reduce my contribution to suffering.   
   >   
   > >>>> Why would you want to do such a thing?  Is there a moral principle - or   
   > >>>> an alleged moral principle - behind it?   
   >   
   > >>> You apparently find it hard to understand why someone would want to   
   > >>> reduce their contribution to animal suffering. I know plenty of people   
   > >>> who don't find it hard to understand at all. There's not much point in   
   > >>> trying to explain it, it's pretty fundamental.   
   >   
   > >> Golly - that sounds an awful lot like what Fuckwit says about "decent   
   > >> lives of positive value".   
   >   
   > > Don't really see the connection, myself.   
   >   
   > I'll make one attempt to explain it.  You wrote:   
   >   
   >        You apparently find it hard to understand why someone would want   
   >        to reduce their contribution to animal suffering. I know plenty   
   >        of people who don't find it hard to understand at all. There's   
   >        not much point in trying to explain it, it's pretty fundamental.   
   >   
   > *Something* has got to serve as the impetus, the motive, to want to   
   > reduce one's contribution to animal suffering.   
      
   What was the motive that led you to want to have a child?   
      
   What, indeed, is the motive that leads you to want to keep yourself   
   alive?   
      
   > I trust you're not   
   > suggesting it's some impulse that comes out of the autonomic nervous   
   > system.  I mean, everyone has an autonomic nervous system, but not   
   > everyone really cares all that much about the origin of eggs, or whether   
   > or not beef cattle are fed grain.  Also, no other species seems to give   
   > any consideration to this at all; predators don't seem at all concerned   
   > about the suffering they cause their prey, and non-predators don't care   
   > about any incidental or collateral suffering they may cause just going   
   > about their lives - e.g., cattle don't look where they're going to   
   > ensure they don't step on any grasshoppers or the like.  There must be   
   > /some/ identifiable aspect of human mentality that leads to some people   
   > caring about the amount of suffering their activities cause, and I'm   
   > just trying to get you to say what you think it is.   
      
   Well, I think it's our capacity for empathy, which I don't agree with   
   you is exclusively human.   
      
   > You formerly seemed   
   > to suggest it was some kind of moral principles,   
      
   Moral beliefs would play a role in many cases, no doubt.   
      
   > but now you're backing   
   > away from that, and I'm simply trying to get you to say what you think   
   > it might be, and you're going all Fuckwit Harrison on us.  When you ask   
   > Fuckwit to define what he means by "decent lives of possitive [sic]   
   > value", and how he can identify which ones are, he refuses to say;   
   > essentially, he says either you get it or you don't, and if you don't,   
   > then there's no way you ever will.  That's what you appear to be doing   
   > here when asked to explain what motivates you to want to reduce the   
   > suffering your "lifestyle" causes.   
   >   
      
   Well, each one of us has a certain set of motivations, right, and at   
   some point the explanation of why we have those motivations has to   
   "bottom out". I gave you the examples of why did you want to have a   
   child, and why do you want to keep yourself alive. You may be able to   
   give some kind of explanation, but obviously at some point the   
   explanation is going to have to "bottom out" and you're just going to   
   have to say "I just am motivated to try to achieve this goal". There   
   may be an explanation of why you are so motivated in terms of some   
   process of natural selection. I speculate that most people wouldn't   
   find a desire to reduce suffering to be all that mysterious, as you   
   seem to.   
      
   Your analogy with David Harrison is not apt, because you're not asking   
   me to define a term I've introduced, you're asking me to explain why I   
   have a certain motivation. Someone who introduces a term has an   
   obligation to try and define it, but if there are limits to my ability   
   to explain why I have the set of motivations that I have, that doesn't   
   mean I'm failing to meet any obligation.   
      
   > >>> Either you care about   
   > >>> animal suffering or you don't. In my experience most people care to at   
   > >>> least some degree, although usually not to the extent of trying to   
   > >>> change their eating habits to do something about it.   
   >   
   > >> Why do they care about it?  What's behind it?  Other animals don't seem   
   > >> to care much about it.  What aspect of humanity makes us care about it?   
   >   
   > > Well, actually, you do quite frequently observe animals showing   
   > > empathy towards other animals. I would say it's probably something to   
   > > do with having evolved as a social animal.   
   >   
   > You don't find much interspecies empathy.  I've seen a Youtube video of   
   > a hippo trying to "save" some kind of deer or antelope or something from   
   > a crocodile, but who knows why it was doing that.  But you see   
   > overwhelming evidence of a complete lack of concern.  Predator animals   
   > don't try to kill their prey by the means that will cause the least   
   > suffering; they just kill however they can.  As I wrote above,   
   > non-predator animals don't make any effort to avoid causing collateral   
   > injury and death to animals as they go about their lives.   
   >   
      
   Humans clearly have a capacity for empathy. You observe this quite   
   frequently in many nonhuman animals as well. In the case of humans you   
   also have the capacity to form moral beliefs, which is probably   
   relevant here. I personally am currently fairly skeptical that there   
   are any moral truths, but I still have a motivation to try to do   
   something to reduce suffering, because I dislike the idea of suffering   
   taking place. Probably you cannot give me any better explanation of   
   why you chose to have a child or why you even want to keep yourself   
   alive. Anyway, I don't see what's so mysterious about it, really.   
      
   > Anyway, your answer was a complete evasion.  I asked what might be   
   > behind the amount of care that would lead a person, for example, to want   
   > to consume eggs from hens not in battery cages, and you just whiffed   
   > off; didn't answer at all.   
      
   I would think it is empathy with the plight of the hens kept in   
   battery cages and a desire to do something about it.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)