762f456c   
   XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, rec.sport.football.college,   
   rec.food.cooking   
   XPost: alt.gothic   
      
   On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:52:18 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   wrote:   
      
   >On Oct 22, 8:02 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   >> On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:53:41 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   >> wrote:   
   >> >On Oct 18, 8:14 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   >> >> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 13:29:18 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   >> >> wrote:   
   >> >> >On Oct 16, 7:25 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   >> >> >> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 03:14:04 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   >> >> >> wrote:   
   >>   
   >> >> >> >On Oct 15, 11:14 pm, Goo wrote:   
   >>   
   >> >> >> >> Rupert is off doing telemarketing in Germany at present.   
   >>   
   >> >> >> >I am doing a post-doc at the University of M nster.   
   >>   
   >> >> >> Here's an easy experiment for you, but please be honest about the   
   results.   
   >> >> >> Ask some of the students if they can comprehend the distinction   
   between lives   
   >> >> >> which are of positive value and lives which are of negative value for   
   different   
   >> >> >> beings.   
   >>   
   >> >> >It's a bit difficult to do that. I don't have any teaching duties and   
   >> >> >I don't speak German very well. Would you like me to ask some of my   
   >> >> >colleagues?   
   >>   
   >> >> Yes please. And if they can come up with a better definition than mine   
   I'd   
   >> >> like to learn about that too, but so far I believe mine covers it as   
   well as it   
   >> >> can without causing excessive restrictions on the idea. No offense, but I   
   >> >> consider "good" to be an excessive restriction.   
   >>   
   >> >I asked Petra and Stefan. Petra said "What does he mean by positive   
   >> >value?" I tried to give them some idea of what I thought you meant by   
   >> >it.   
   >>   
   >>     What did you tell them?   
   >>   
   >   
   >I told them that I think it's got something to do with the idea of a   
   >life which contains a balance of pleasant experiences over aversive   
   >experiences.   
      
       Not enough suffering to make it of negative value is my answer. From there   
   they would need to figure out what it means to them if they can. Just because   
   you can't doesn't mean other people can't. Remember we were doing it in grade   
   school, so it seems ANYONE in high school or above should certainly be able to   
   do it as wall.   
      
   >> >They both seemed to think it would be pretty hard to determine   
   >> >whether a cow has a life of positive value,   
   >>   
   >>     Not for a person who is familiar with the cow and its life. You can bet   
   >> there are lots of farmers who have a pretty good idea about how their   
   animals   
   >> are doing and whether they are overly stressed or not. Here's something I   
   feel   
   >> sure you've heard before but can't afford to appreciate: Cow produce milk a   
   lot   
   >> better when they aren't stressed and unhappy.   
   >>   
   >   
   >The measures which the modern dairy industry take to ensure that cows   
   >produce milk most certainly make them very stressed and unhappy. I've   
   >already given you information about that.   
      
       I've spent hundreds of hours on dairy farms and the cows all seemed happy   
   enough. The only time they acted stressed at all was when the farmer was a   
   little bit late with feeding. That's not enough to make their lives of negative   
   value instead of positive value imo. In fact since anticipation is something   
   humans enjoy, it might add positive value to cows' lives as well even if they   
   can't appreciate it.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)