b0f6c5ed   
   XPost: alt.creative+cooking, alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, rec.   
   port.football.college   
   XPost: rec.food.cooking   
   From: rupertmccallum@yahoo.com   
      
   On Oct 24, 9:48 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   > On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 02:27:37 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   > wrote:   
   >   
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   >   
   > >On Oct 24, 12:53 am, dh@. wrote:   
   > >> On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:47:51 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   > >> wrote:   
   >   
   > >> >On Oct 22, 8:16 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   > >> >> >I'm talking about doing what I can to make the outcome better.   
   >   
   > >> >> You're doing nothing for any livestock with your lifestyle, and you   
   should   
   > >> >> either accept it and be proud of it because that's your deliberate   
   intent, of   
   > >> >> finally do something after however many years of deliberately doing   
   nothing.   
   >   
   > >> >I've told you what my goals are. You've given me no reason to think   
   > >> >that my strategy for pursuing these goals is irrational.   
   >   
   > >> >> >> There are things you could do   
   > >> >> >> to contribute to decent lives for livestock without spending a lot   
   of money but   
   > >> >> >> it would still be doing more than nothing like you're doing now. If   
   you buy cage   
   > >> >> >> free eggs and give them to someone who buys battery farmed eggs   
   then you'll be   
   > >> >> >> doing a couple of things instead of nothing, and if you can   
   persuade some people   
   > >> >> >> to buy cage free instead of battery farmed you'd be doing that much   
   more than   
   > >> >> >> nothing.   
   >   
   > >> >> >Or I could donate to Vegan Outreach, as I sometimes do, which tries to   
   > >> >> >persuade people to give up animal products or at least cut down on   
   > >> >> >them.   
   >   
   > >> >> That does nothing to help any livestock, so even when you pretend to do   
   > >> >> something you are still doing nothing.   
   >   
   > >> >It reduces suffering.   
   >   
   > >> Nope.   
   >   
   > >Why do you think that?   
   >   
   > >> >> Doing the thing with cage free eggs I   
   > >> >> suggested WOULD BE doing something,   
   >   
   > >> >By donating to Vegan Outreach I am almost certainly helping to   
   > >> >persuade some people to switch to cage free eggs.   
   >   
   > >> How do you think that could possibly be the case?   
   >   
   > >It's obvious. Not everyone who read the leaflets will give up eggs   
   > >completely. Of those who don't give up eggs completey, some will at   
   > >least take the step of switching to cage free eggs.   
   >   
   >     Do vegan leaflets encourage people to buy cage free eggs?   
   >   
   > >> >> but for years you have done nothing. You   
   > >> >> should either accept it and be proud of it, or move on and do   
   something as I've   
   > >> >> been encouraging you for how many years now? Several, no doubt, but   
   still you do   
   > >> >> nothing.   
   >   
   > >> >It is not true that I am doing nothing.   
   >   
   > >> Your GOAL is to do nothing. Were you unaware of that?   
   >   
   > >It's nonsense.   
   >   
   >     It's another fact that you don't like, but it's obviously true.   
      
   Actually, it's obviously complete nonsense... to any person of normal   
   cognitive ability.   
      
   > But! If you   
   > want to pretend you're doing something to help some livestock with your   
   > lifestyle, then what livestock do you think it's helping and how do you   
   think it   
   > helps? And btw encouraging other people to go vegan and do nothing is NOT an   
   > example of you doing something, even when the people you encourage don't do   
   as   
   > you suggest. Now if you suggested that people who buy cage raised eggs buy   
   cage   
   > free THEN you would be doing something, but NOT when you encourage vaganism.   
   >   
      
   Going vegan is taking steps to reduce the amount of suffering   
   experienced by farm animals. So is donating money to organizations   
   which encourage other people to be vegan.   
      
   > >> If not, you should   
   > >> become aware of it. Here's a clue for you: People who want to help   
   livestock   
   > >> with their lifestyle become conscientious consumers of animal products.   
   People   
   > >> who want to do nothing for livestock with their lifestyles avoid animals   
   > >> products instead. That's a basic you should really learn to comprehend,   
   and if   
   > >> you don't like your position then you should move on to a more AW   
   approach as   
   > >> I've been encourageing you to do for years.   
   >   
   > >Taking steps to reduce the amount of suffering experienced by   
   > >livestock is not "doing nothing" for livestock.   
   >   
   >     Vegans do no more than dead people, so maybe we should try to persuade   
   > ourselves to believe dead people help livestock?   
      
   Dead people don't perform any actions.   
      
   > Maybe you should since they   
   > "help" them as much as you do, but I won't be fooled into it. They don't,   
   just   
   > as vegans don't.   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   > >> >> >This will no doubt have the result that some people move from   
   > >> >> >battery cage eggs to free-range eggs.   
   >   
   > >> >> LOL! It's dishonestly on a Goobal level to blatanly lie that   
   encouraging   
   > >> >> veganism will promote cage free egg purchases. I don't believe you're   
   stupid   
   > >> >> enough to think it somehow could either, meaning you're being   
   deliberately   
   > >> >> dishonest. Why would you even want people to think you're supporting   
   ANY kind of   
   > >> >> egg production when you're opposed to every bit of it entirely?   
   >   
   > >> >Vegan Outreach promotes veganism as the ideal, but it also encourages   
   > >> >people to adopt compromises if they're not ready for full veganism.   
   >   
   > >> I'm in favor of that INSTEAD OF full veganism, not as a lame step in that   
   > >> direction. Why go from contributing to decent conditions for livestock to   
   doing   
   > >> nothing, and do it deliberately???   
   >   
   > >The rationale for going completely vegan is that it is the best way to   
   > >reduce suffering.   
   >   
   >     That's a matter of opinion. There's nothing wrong with the opinion that   
   > contributing to decent lives for livestock might be as good or better an   
   > approach than doing nothing.   
   >   
      
   You would need to be specific about the approach you would take, and   
   provide evidence that it is as good or better than being vegan.   
      
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   >   
   > >> >> >> >> And from the   
   > >> >> >> >> animals' position having that done would be priceless. We're   
   talking about   
   > >> >> >> >> doubling, tripling, or whatever the lives of the animals so from   
   their position   
   > >> >> >> >> the cost could never enter into it.   
   >   
   > >> >> >> >But the same might be said of the potential malaria victim in the   
   > >> >> >> >Third World whose life I can save. So I have to make the decision   
   > >> >> >> >based on something or other, and one of the relevant factors is how   
   > >> >> >> >much each option costs, so that I can make the outcome better in   
   the   
   > >> >> >> >most economically efficient way possible.   
   >   
   > >> >> >> We're discussing whether it might be ok for you to contribute to   
   decent   
   > >> >> >> lives for livestock or better to do nothing as you're doing now.   
   What you do in   
      
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