18e93be6   
   XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, rec.sport.football.college,   
   rec.food.cooking   
   XPost: alt.gothic   
   From: rupertmccallum@yahoo.com   
      
   On Oct 24, 9:44 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   > On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 02:31:17 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   > wrote:   
   >   
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   >   
   > >On Oct 24, 12:08 am, dh@. wrote:   
   > >> On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:52:18 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   > >> wrote:   
   >   
   > >> >On Oct 22, 8:02 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   > >> >> On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:53:41 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   > >> >> wrote:   
   > >> >> >On Oct 18, 8:14 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   > >> >> >> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 13:29:18 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   > >> >> >> wrote:   
   > >> >> >> >On Oct 16, 7:25 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 03:14:04 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <   
   upertmccal...@yahoo.com>   
   > >> >> >> >> wrote:   
   >   
   > >> >> >> >> >On Oct 15, 11:14 pm, Goo wrote:   
   >   
   > >> >> >> >> >> Rupert is off doing telemarketing in Germany at present.   
   >   
   > >> >> >> >> >I am doing a post-doc at the University of M nster.   
   >   
   > >> >> >> >> Here's an easy experiment for you, but please be honest about   
   the results.   
   > >> >> >> >> Ask some of the students if they can comprehend the distinction   
   between lives   
   > >> >> >> >> which are of positive value and lives which are of negative   
   value for different   
   > >> >> >> >> beings.   
   >   
   > >> >> >> >It's a bit difficult to do that. I don't have any teaching duties   
   and   
   > >> >> >> >I don't speak German very well. Would you like me to ask some of my   
   > >> >> >> >colleagues?   
   >   
   > >> >> >> Yes please. And if they can come up with a better definition than   
   mine I'd   
   > >> >> >> like to learn about that too, but so far I believe mine covers it   
   as well as it   
   > >> >> >> can without causing excessive restrictions on the idea. No offense,   
   but I   
   > >> >> >> consider "good" to be an excessive restriction.   
   >   
   > >> >> >I asked Petra and Stefan. Petra said "What does he mean by positive   
   > >> >> >value?" I tried to give them some idea of what I thought you meant by   
   > >> >> >it.   
   >   
   > >> >> What did you tell them?   
   >   
   > >> >I told them that I think it's got something to do with the idea of a   
   > >> >life which contains a balance of pleasant experiences over aversive   
   > >> >experiences.   
   >   
   > >>     Not enough suffering to make it of negative value is my answer. From   
   there   
   > >> they would need to figure out what it means to them if they can. Just   
   because   
   > >> you can't doesn't mean other people can't. Remember we were doing it in   
   grade   
   > >> school, so it seems ANYONE in high school or above should certainly be   
   able to   
   > >> do it as wall.   
   >   
   > >Presumably here "figure out what it means to them" means "make up your   
   > >own criteria for how to determine whether the concept applies or not".   
   > >Obviously I would be capable of formulating such criteria, but that's   
   > >not my job. It's your phrase, and it's your job to specify the   
   > >criteria for evaluating whether or not the phrase applies to an actual   
   > >situation.   
   >   
   >     In the end each person must decide for himself as I've pointed out to you   
   > from the start.   
      
   Why? Why can't I just say "It's a meaningless phrase"? The evidence   
   for that conclusion would appear to be pretty strong, if you can give   
   no guidance at all on how to interpret the phrase.   
      
   > Here's an obvious clue for you that MIGHT help you finally learn   
   > to comprehend the fact and maybe even eventually learn to appreciate it.   
   Here's   
   > the clue: Some people believe elimination is the best approach, while others   
   > believe that providing decent AW is the best approach. Each person must   
   decide   
   > for himself... It's the same with lives we consider to be of positive value.   
   For   
   > example so far from what you've told me the only creatures on the planet you   
   > think might have lives of positive value are SOME grass raised cattle.   
      
   Actually, I've told you no such thing.   
      
   > In   
   > contrast to that I believe most cattle do including those fed grain, and that   
   > most broiler chickens and their parents do, and that even the parents of   
   caged   
   > laying hens do. There are others too of course, but that alone is more than   
   you   
   > could ever learn to appreciate during your entire life while I've been able   
   to   
   > appreciate them for decades.   
   >   
      
   And what are the objective criteria which make your view superior?   
   What objective evidence is it based on?   
      
   >   
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   >   
   > >> >> >They both seemed to think it would be pretty hard to determine   
   > >> >> >whether a cow has a life of positive value,   
   >   
   > >> >> Not for a person who is familiar with the cow and its life. You can bet   
   > >> >> there are lots of farmers who have a pretty good idea about how their   
   animals   
   > >> >> are doing and whether they are overly stressed or not. Here's   
   something I feel   
   > >> >> sure you've heard before but can't afford to appreciate: Cow produce   
   milk a lot   
   > >> >> better when they aren't stressed and unhappy.   
   >   
   > >> >The measures which the modern dairy industry take to ensure that cows   
   > >> >produce milk most certainly make them very stressed and unhappy. I've   
   > >> >already given you information about that.   
   >   
   > >>     I've spent hundreds of hours on dairy farms and the cows all seemed   
   happy   
   > >> enough. The only time they acted stressed at all was when the farmer was a   
   > >> little bit late with feeding. That's not enough to make their lives of   
   negative   
   > >> value instead of positive value imo. In fact since anticipation is   
   something   
   > >> humans enjoy, it might add positive value to cows' lives as well even if   
   they   
   > >> can't appreciate it.   
   >   
   > >When did you have occasion to visit dairy farms? Were you working   
   > >there? Where were these farms?   
   >   
   >     From about fifth grade through seventh grade in PA I spent time on a   
   dairy   
   > farm almost every day. The farmers knew me well and sometimes would rag me a   
   > little when I was "late". A farmer's son showed me how to trap muskrats and I   
   > spent quite a few hours doing that. I saw calves born and saw them taken away   
   > from their mothers. The first time it was done the new mother was very upset   
   for   
   > a few days, but the older cows usually didn't seem to mind much because   
   that's   
   > what they got used to. My brother and I were disturbed when one calf we   
   became   
   > especially fond of was taken away, but the farmers did make us understand the   
   > situation and that a farm is a business so they can't afford to have a bunch   
   of   
   > pet calves around drinking milk for no return. The cattle in general all   
   seemed   
   > to be content with their position in life, which makes sense because they   
   never   
   > learned about anything different. They couldn't want much more than what they   
   > had anyway. They were put out to pasture in good days and kept in on bad   
   days,   
      
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