XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, rec.sport.football.college,   
   rec.food.cooking   
   XPost: alt.gothic   
      
   On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 14:42:46 -0600, "!@#$%&*(The Shyftyng Nym)*&%$#@!"   
    wrote:   
      
   >On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 15:39:55 -0400, dh@. wrote:   
   >   
   >>On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 22:50:12 -0600, "!@#$%&*(The Shyftyng Nym)*&%$#@!"   
   >> wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>On 10/23/2012 4:07 PM, dh@. wrote:   
   >>>> On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:52:18 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   >>>> wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On Oct 22, 8:02 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   >>>>>> On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:53:41 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   >>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On Oct 18, 8:14 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 13:29:18 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   >>>>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 7:25 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 03:14:04 -0700 (PDT), Rupert    
   >>>>>>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 11:14 pm, Goo wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Rupert is off doing telemarketing in Germany at present.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> I am doing a post-doc at the University of M nster.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Here's an easy experiment for you, but please be honest about the   
   results.   
   >>>>>>>>>> Ask some of the students if they can comprehend the distinction   
   between lives   
   >>>>>>>>>> which are of positive value and lives which are of negative value   
   for different   
   >>>>>>>>>> beings.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> It's a bit difficult to do that. I don't have any teaching duties and   
   >>>>>>>>> I don't speak German very well. Would you like me to ask some of my   
   >>>>>>>>> colleagues?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Yes please. And if they can come up with a better definition than   
   mine I'd   
   >>>>>>>> like to learn about that too, but so far I believe mine covers it as   
   well as it   
   >>>>>>>> can without causing excessive restrictions on the idea. No offense,   
   but I   
   >>>>>>>> consider "good" to be an excessive restriction.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> I asked Petra and Stefan. Petra said "What does he mean by positive   
   >>>>>>> value?" I tried to give them some idea of what I thought you meant by   
   >>>>>>> it.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>      What did you tell them?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> I told them that I think it's got something to do with the idea of a   
   >>>>> life which contains a balance of pleasant experiences over aversive   
   >>>>> experiences.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>      Not enough suffering to make it of negative value is my answer. From   
   there   
   >>>> they would need to figure out what it means to them if they can. Just   
   because   
   >>>> you can't doesn't mean other people can't. Remember we were doing it in   
   grade   
   >>>> school, so it seems ANYONE in high school or above should certainly be   
   able to   
   >>>> do it as wall.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>> They both seemed to think it would be pretty hard to determine   
   >>>>>>> whether a cow has a life of positive value,   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>      Not for a person who is familiar with the cow and its life. You   
   can bet   
   >>>>>> there are lots of farmers who have a pretty good idea about how their   
   animals   
   >>>>>> are doing and whether they are overly stressed or not. Here's something   
   I feel   
   >>>>>> sure you've heard before but can't afford to appreciate: Cow produce   
   milk a lot   
   >>>>>> better when they aren't stressed and unhappy.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> The measures which the modern dairy industry take to ensure that cows   
   >>>>> produce milk most certainly make them very stressed and unhappy. I've   
   >>>>> already given you information about that.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>      I've spent hundreds of hours on dairy farms and the cows all seemed   
   happy   
   >>>> enough. The only time they acted stressed at all was when the farmer was a   
   >>>> little bit late with feeding. That's not enough to make their lives of   
   negative   
   >>>> value instead of positive value imo. In fact since anticipation is   
   something   
   >>>> humans enjoy, it might add positive value to cows' lives as well even if   
   they   
   >>>> can't appreciate it.   
   >>>>   
   >>>   
   >>>Would you say that if the farmer was any epsilon such that epsilon < k,   
   >>>where k is a real value late that the cows would begin to stress?  Was   
   >>>their stress a delta function or a step function, or some other stable   
   >>>function of time and the exact moment R of feeding?  How does time of   
   >>>negative value stack up to pay down value of lives, is it cumulative, or   
   >>>merely arithmetic?   
   >>   
   >>    It's only of negative value during the time that the animals are waiting   
   >>beyond the normal feeding time. But the gratification might be enough better   
   >>because of the anticipation that overall the late feedings really add to the   
   >>positive value more than they detract from the negative value. It would be   
   >>different if they went for long periods like days of course, but just late   
   for   
   >>an hour or so once in a while it could overall add to the positive value.   
   >   
   >Get the fuck out of here.   
      
       It may or may not, but it's certainly not something bad enough to give   
   their   
   lives in general negative value. Are you some sort of veg*n?   
      
   >We have better time than to watch some   
   >ignorant template build lincoln logs.   
      
       What better time do you have?   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)