ea0790e0   
   XPost: alt.creative+cooking, alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, rec.   
   port.football.college   
   XPost: rec.food.cooking   
   From: rupertmccallum@yahoo.com   
      
   On Nov 1, 5:17 pm, dh@. wrote:   
   > >> >> Your GOAL is to do nothing. Were you unaware of that?   
   >   
   > >> >It's nonsense.   
   >   
   > >> It's another fact that you don't like, but it's obviously true.   
   >   
   > >Actually, it's obviously complete nonsense... to any person of normal   
   > >cognitive ability.   
   >   
   >     By deliberately avoiding animal products you are trying NOT TO have an   
   > influence.   
      
   I've explained the motivation for avoiding animal products many times.   
   It's to reduce the amount of suffering that takes place. This really   
   shouldn't be too hard to grasp.   
      
   > You can't trick me into believing that's not the case either, even if   
   > you truly are gullible enough to have somehow been tricked into believing   
   it's   
   > not yourself. How were you, if you were?   
   >   
   > >> But! If you   
   > >> want to pretend you're doing something to help some livestock with your   
   > >> lifestyle, then what livestock do you think it's helping and how do you   
   think it   
   > >> helps? And btw encouraging other people to go vegan and do nothing is NOT   
   an   
   > >> example of you doing something, even when the people you encourage don't   
   do as   
   > >> you suggest. Now if you suggested that people who buy cage raised eggs   
   buy cage   
   > >> free THEN you would be doing something, but NOT when you encourage   
   vaganism.   
   >   
   > >Going vegan is taking steps to reduce the amount of suffering   
   > >experienced by farm animals.   
   >   
      
   This is correct.   
      
   >     It's an attempt to do nothing in regards to farm animals, and you can't   
   even   
   > pretend that it's not an attempt to do nothing. You do no more than people do   
   > when they die. Less actually, since you still make plenty of contributions to   
   > animal deaths with the by-products you contribute to, and the veggies you   
   eat.   
   >   
   > >So is donating money to organizations   
   > >which encourage other people to be vegan.   
   >   
      
   So is this.   
      
   >     By doing that you encourage other people to do nothing LIKE YOU. It's   
   only   
   > when they DO NOT do what you encourage that they would possibly buy cage free   
   > eggs. It seems even a guy with a PhD in math should be able to figure that   
   one   
   > out.   
   >   
   > >> >> If not, you should   
   > >> >> become aware of it. Here's a clue for you: People who want to help   
   livestock   
   > >> >> with their lifestyle become conscientious consumers of animal   
   products. People   
   > >> >> who want to do nothing for livestock with their lifestyles avoid   
   animals   
   > >> >> products instead. That's a basic you should really learn to   
   comprehend, and if   
   > >> >> you don't like your position then you should move on to a more AW   
   approach as   
   > >> >> I've been encourageing you to do for years.   
   >   
   > >> >Taking steps to reduce the amount of suffering experienced by   
   > >> >livestock is not "doing nothing" for livestock.   
   >   
   > >> Vegans do no more than dead people, so maybe we should try to persuade   
   > >> ourselves to believe dead people help livestock?   
   >   
   > >Dead people don't perform any actions.   
   >   
   >     You don't perform any actions that contribute to better or decent lives   
   for   
   > livestock with your lifestyle,   
      
   I've made a change in my lifestyle which reduces my contribution to   
   the amount of suffering that livestock experience.   
      
   > but only to the deaths of wildlife. IF you make   
   > financial contributions deliberately to help livestock, tell us what kind you   
   > make and why you contribute to them through donations while deliberately   
   > avoiding contributing to them with your lifestlyle.   
   >   
   > >> Maybe you should since they   
   > >> "help" them as much as you do, but I won't be fooled into it. They don't,   
   just   
   > >> as vegans don't.   
   >   
   > >> >> >> >This will no doubt have the result that some people move from   
   > >> >> >> >battery cage eggs to free-range eggs.   
   >   
   > >> >> >> LOL! It's dishonestly on a Goobal level to blatanly lie that   
   encouraging   
   > >> >> >> veganism will promote cage free egg purchases. I don't believe   
   you're stupid   
   > >> >> >> enough to think it somehow could either, meaning you're being   
   deliberately   
   > >> >> >> dishonest. Why would you even want people to think you're   
   supporting ANY kind of   
   > >> >> >> egg production when you're opposed to every bit of it entirely?   
   >   
   > >> >> >Vegan Outreach promotes veganism as the ideal, but it also encourages   
   > >> >> >people to adopt compromises if they're not ready for full veganism.   
   >   
   > >> >> I'm in favor of that INSTEAD OF full veganism, not as a lame step in   
   that   
   > >> >> direction. Why go from contributing to decent conditions for livestock   
   to doing   
   > >> >> nothing, and do it deliberately???   
   >   
   > >> >The rationale for going completely vegan is that it is the best way to   
   > >> >reduce suffering.   
   >   
   > >> That's a matter of opinion. There's nothing wrong with the opinion that   
   > >> contributing to decent lives for livestock might be as good or better an   
   > >> approach than doing nothing.   
   >   
   > >You would need to be specific about the approach you would take, and   
   > >provide evidence that it is as good or better than being vegan.   
   >   
   >     Buying grass raised dairy and even grain fed contributes to fewer deaths   
   > than buying rice milk imo, since cattle don't flood and drain fields nor do   
   > farmers in order to raise cattle....unless they feed them rice of course.   
   Also   
   > buying grass raised beef over buying tofu, and buying wild caught seafood   
   over   
   > tofu because the beef contributes to far less than one death per serving and   
   the   
   > seafood to one death or less per serving, while the tofu is likely to   
   contribute   
   > to several deaths per serving.   
      
   We've been through this before. It's 0.001 deaths per serving, where   
   by "serving" we mean something that gives you the daily requirement of   
   protein.   
      
   You haven't provided conclusive evidence that these changes you   
   suggest would be improvements.   
      
   > Also it's very good to contribute to the cage   
   > free method of egg production in the USA imo, which means it's better than   
   NOT!   
      
   Why?   
      
   > Those are some ways. So from my pov encouraging someone to buy cage free   
   eggs is   
   > admirable, while encouraging them to go vegan and do nothing is pathetic.   
   >   
      
   And why do you think that?   
      
   > >> >> >> >> >> And from the   
   > >> >> >> >> >> animals' position having that done would be priceless. We're   
   talking about   
   > >> >> >> >> >> doubling, tripling, or whatever the lives of the animals so   
   from their position   
   > >> >> >> >> >> the cost could never enter into it.   
   >   
   > >> >> >> >> >But the same might be said of the potential malaria victim in   
   the   
   > >> >> >> >> >Third World whose life I can save. So I have to make the   
   decision   
   > >> >> >> >> >based on something or other, and one of the relevant factors is   
   how   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)