XPost: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, talk.politics.animals, alt   
   philosophy.debate   
   XPost: talk.philosophy.misc   
   From: lambda@dr.com   
      
   dh_ld@nomail.com writes:   
      
   >   
   >     How about the mass experiencing of life by billions of animals who   
   > only live because they are raised by humans?   
   >   
      
   You mean those pigs who live in cages, forced to sit in their own   
   excrements, have barely any room to move, and have been mutilated   
   without anesthesia by having had their teeth grinded or their tails cut   
   off?   
      
   Or do you mean the cows, who get raped, separated from their babies, and   
   killed at 25% their average maximum age because their milk production   
   lowers?   
      
   Or do you mean the chickens, which have been bred to be so fat that they   
   cannot even stand and that they can barely breathe. They just sit in   
   their own excrement all day, with burn wounds on their flesh from their   
   excrement's acidity, desperately gasping for air.   
      
   These animals are the norm. If you want to avoid supporting this, then   
   you cannot go to McDonalds, KFC, most support markets, or virtually any   
   restaurant for your meat. You basically have to live like a vegan except   
   that you would get meat from some farmer whom you have personally   
   verified* if you want to consume that "ethical" meat. And in my   
   experience, no in that brings up your argument does that. The animal   
   torture industry seems to be supported almost entirely by people who   
   claim that they are against the animal torture industry.   
      
      
   Also, your argument leads to an absurdity. You argue that it is good for   
   a species to be bred into slavery and be killed at an early age because   
   that leads to more of them getting to live. But if that is so good for a   
   species, then why not do it for the human animals? Certainly, parents   
   will be able to grant life to more children if they kill their children   
   at age 20 and then sell their organs, using the money to raise another   
   child. Why would this be an advantage for non-human animals, but not for   
   human animals?   
      
      
   *Most animal protection labels such as "free-range" are   
   nonsense, in fact, the chicken example described how free-range chickens   
   live! You cannot trust authorities as they normally get bouht and used   
   as marketing tools for fooling the customers (or helping them to fool   
   themselves, as people often try to be ignorant in these matters).   
      
      
   >   
   >     We know that they don't. Do animals need to be raised so we   
   > can eat them in order for those billions of animals to live? We know   
   > that they do. We also know that no animals are raised so that   
   > people can eat vegetables.   
      
   See above. Why not kill of humans, sell their organs, and use   
   the profit from that to breed more humans into existence? Think of all   
   the millions of humans that are being deprived of life because we are   
   not doing this to humans. If depriving a non-existing non-hman animal of   
   life is so bad that we need to torture and kill to grant life to as many   
   of them as possible, then certainly depriving humans of life is much   
   worse! So in that case, we certainly need to grant humans the same   
   favour as we grant non-human animals, and we need to start killing   
   adolescents and use the profit from selling their organs to breed   
   millions more humans into existance.   
      
   >   
   >     People can go to local farmers today and buy animal products from   
   > animals they feel have decent lives. That way they could contribute   
   > to decent lives for farm animals. They can't do it by being veg*n. By   
   > eating grass raised beef, people contribute to less deaths than by   
   > eating tofu. By drinking grass raised milk, people contribute to less   
   > deaths than by drinking soy or rice milk.   
      
   No one does that. Virtually all meat that people eat is just random meat   
   from tortured animals. If people started checking for animal well-being   
   then they would have to live like vegans, refusing virtually all meat   
   that is sold and only being personally verified and very expensive meat.   
      
   Besides, every farm is local to someone. Locality to were   
   you happen to be means nothing. Most of the torturing is done on the   
   farm, none of the torturing is done on the way to the customer, as by   
   then the animals have typically already been slaughtered and it is   
   merely chopped of parts from their corpses that are being transported.   
      
   Also, did you know that in order to make farms many forests have been   
   destroyed? Especially the food of these animals. Most of the grown soy   
   goes to farm animals, and soy production is a huge contributor to   
   dforestation. We are destroying the habitats, and by that lives, of free   
   animals just so we can make room for the animals that we torture and   
   kill for profit and entertainment.   
      
   This may be a shocker to you, but animals in farm are raised solely for   
   profit, and their corpses are consumed solely for entertainment, no one   
   in the chain cares for animals, no one checks for "ethical" meat and if   
   people did then the animal industry would collapse because they are now   
   so big that they need to torture animals in order to be efficient and   
   profitable enough to sustain themselves. They torturing of animals is   
   100% necessary for us to keep consuming the huge amounts of meat that we   
   consume. If we stop torturing animals and let them graye freely before   
   we violently kill them for our own pleasure and profit, then the meat   
   price would multiply many times over.   
      
   Your ethical meat is a fantasy that does not exist and cannot   
   exist. Meat from animals is tortured, it has to be that way because it   
   is most profitable so corporation who do it that way will always win out   
   on the market. People want cheap meat, they do not want to spend an   
   entire day verifying where their meat comes from only to then buy it at   
   6 times the normal price and to never be able to eat meat anywhere else   
   (like in restaurants). You are living a fantasy. Step out of it. Watch   
   footage of the big players where most meat comes from, like Moy Park (if   
   you are in West Europe) or one of the big player in wherever you   
   live. Get out of your fantasy land and step back into reality.   
      
      
   --   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)