From: someone@anywheret.net   
      
   "Jim D"  wrote in message news:2018111122205574663-Not@ThisAddresscom...   
      
   > Got the garlic planted.   
      
   That reminds me, that it's about time to make another vat of spaghetti, and   
   load it up with cheese, and lots of freshly pressed garlic - YUM!!! ;)   
      
   > Something came up while talking about this volume thing with wife.  I   
   > realized she doesn't understand WHY it's an issue.   
      
   I don't blame her...No one should have to keep putting up with that.   
      
   > I was trying to explaing that in recording, or in a real band, you don't   
   > just crank things up without end to make them stand out.  Bar bands do   
   > that, and that's why they are nearly uniformly too loud.   
      
   And consequently, studio recordings sound great while the sound of such bar   
   bands is pure CRAP!   
      
   > In a bar band, if I'm not loud enough, I buy a bigger amp. Simple.  Then   
   > everyone else does the same, and we're back to the original problem, but   
   > everything is a lot louder.   
      
   And Stupid is as Stupid does!   
      
   > In recording, there is a limit.  And that's it. Can't go past the max   
   > level on the system.   
      
   There are also a Practical Limits with the bar bands - when details in the   
   Music are washed out by Excessive levels, when ringing ears make it even   
   more difficult to appreciate the sound, when Pain resulting from those   
   excessive levels prevents enjoying the Music, and when Deafness slowly but   
   surely Eliminates the ability to even hear, much less clearly, what's being   
   played - because the only thing that has no limit is the level of Immaturity   
   and STUPIDITY!!!   
      
   > I realized something while driving today. Was saying to wife, it's like   
   > inside a car stereo, there is a limit to the levels. Then it hit me, she   
   > doesn't understand that. She doesn't know HOW it works. She's like... want   
   > it louder, crank the volume up.  And that's the insight.   
      
   But the question is: want it How Much louder?   
      
   > We run everything thru the pa. So there is that systems internal gain   
   > structure to work within.  I know that if we bring the drums up to just   
   > under the main buss's max level, that I can't then add 5 or 6 more   
   > instruments, AND .... make one or the other stand out from the rest ....   
   > because it'll just overload the mixing buss.   
      
   Overcranking Always overloads something, including hearing ability.   
      
   > She didn't get that. I said, well, it's like people talking to doctors.   
   > They tell you what wrong, what the treatment is as best they know. They   
   > generally don't like to get into some " why " or argure with a stubborn   
   > patient. I said, a doctor can't tell you enough in 5 minutes to bring you   
   > up to speed equivalent to years of medical school.   
      
   At least there, the internet can always be of help in explaining such   
   things.   
      
   > That's when it hit me. I'm talking gain structure problems with the band,   
   > and they haven't a clue. They think the pa works like a car stereo, you   
   > just crank it up.   
      
   Car stereos nowadays, like the cars themselves, are designed for use by   
   Idiots, so there are limits built in. But with professional equipment, which   
   is Not designed for Idiots, because it's assumed that at lest somewhat   
   knowledgeable persons will be using it, and know not to overload the   
   capabilities of the equipment....even if they don't.   
      
   > Well, yeah, overall I can do that. But what I can't do is run the system   
   > up to its limits and then STILL BE ABLE to somehow boost the guitar or   
   > vocals or drums up if they need to stand out beyond the max the system   
   > will go.  I can't " go buy a bigger amp " for just one synth track.   
      
   Maybe there's an Idiot-friendly system out there with all the limiting   
   devices built in ;)   
      
   > I'm working on a way to explain this to band girl.  She totally doesn't   
   > get it, and I totally get that :-)   I want to go the way of backing off   
   > on some things if something needs to stand out. She thinks like a bar   
   > player, that no matter how loud it is, if something needs emphasis, "   
   > crank it up ".   
      
   That's  the way it's  Always done, by those who know what they're doing that   
   is. But backing off is just as elusive a concept to Idiots as turning a   
   level control Counterclockwise...since after all, it's the same thing ;)   
      
   > Why not just set the levels lower on the channels so I can bring one up   
   > when needed ?   Because of the loud drummer.  No matter where I set   
   > levels, he and our sometimes other guitar player just play louder until   
   > they dominate the stage level.   
      
   That's Selfishness...and not at all conducive to being a Real Band!   
      
   > They are both being phased out.   
      
   Good idea. The sooner the better.   
      
   > I thought this would be a good time to revisit this issue.  Found out   
   > yesterday and today that I still have resistance.   
      
   What kind of resistance? To keeping levels properly adjusted for the best   
   sound?   
      
   > I'm not giving up tho.  There has to be some way to get it across that   
   > it's possible to let off now and then when you're not the main focus.   
      
   That main focus part is the problem.   
      
   > But she has a lifetime of working with bands that didn't know that was   
   > even possible.   
      
   It's important to experiment with that to find out...but that means that   
   there has to be the Inclination to do that ;)   
      
   > One example. She told me yesterday ...... after she said her mic was too   
   > hot, too loud ... I said that she could just, you know, hold it back from   
   > her mouth a little .... she said she doesn't see the pro's doing that ....   
   > that they all have their mics right up against their lips.   
      
   That's Crazy!   
      
   > how can you reason with logic like that ?   
      
      
   JimD   
      
   No logic=no reason!   
      
   When I started singing, the first thing I learned is to work the mic -   
   particularly since I'm playing keys  and moving around on the keyboard, and   
   quite some distance, particularly on piano, while I'm singing, which means I   
   have to pay attention to how close or far I am from the mic all the time.   
   And personally, I'd really prefer not to 'eat' the mic, but I do realize   
   that there are certain situations where it may become necessary,   
   particularly in regards to increasing signal to noise ratios to prevent   
   feedback issues.   
      
   Ouisie   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)