From: someone@anywheret.net   
      
   "Jim D"  wrote in message news:2019041811555834943-Not@ThisAddresscom...   
      
   > Her and I had a session yesterday.  Spent some time LOOKING at the db   
   > levels we work.   I've just layed down the reality with her. I'm not   
   > working at ****** stage levels ********  over about 90 db.   Just ain't   
   > happening.   I'm not going to wear hear plugs so we can just play louder   
   > ON STAGE.   
      
   90 dB is plenty. But all SPL figures are best stated in terms of distance   
   from the source i.e. 90 dB at 1 meter at 1 Watt. But that's only for speaker   
   parameters - for the important hearing protecting purpose, all that's needed   
   is the SPL and the distance from the source.   
      
   > The FOH and the stage level are two separate things.   
      
   Or at least they should be ;)   
      
   > So stop whinning about the FOH levels. No more asking " a friend " if   
   > we're loud enough. I'm done with that.   
      
   Unless she can actually hear the FOH system from the perspective of the   
   audience, what possible basis can she have for evaluating its level in the   
   first place?   
      
   > It occurs to me, she simply can't wrap her mind around the the stage level   
   > and the FOH level being different.   
      
   > Because she doesn't want to.   
      
   That's it, but why?   
      
   > She did make reference at one point that her own voice was drowning out   
   > the music.  Huh.  Well, how about you back off a little on the vocal level   
   > ?   That's the stickler.  She's worked with loud bar bands so long, so   
   > much, that she's stuck in a singing style of VERY LOUD. There's not easing   
   > off, at least so far. Oh she, can, I've seen her do it, but she doesn't   
   > want to.   
      
   > Again, that phrase, because she doesn't want to.   
      
   Practicing the new technique is what's needed there.   
      
   > Or, simply get the stage level down to where you don't need them.   
      
   THAT would be Ideal!!! I just HATE the notion of playing under some kind  of   
   Handicap, where 'work-arounds' and other compensating and mitigating   
   techniques are used...particularly if they wouldn't even be necessary if   
   things were done RIGHT in the first place!!!   
      
   > There's no reason musicians can't play at tolerable stage levels.   
      
   None at all. It just  takes the right ATTITUDE!   
      
   > Turn the stuff down and mic things for the FOH sound.  They just don't   
   > want to.   
      
   Whatever makes it sound BEST - THAT *should* be the  attitude!   
      
   > We talked about that.  I'm ok with her using a wedge IF she keeps it   
   > pointed at her head.   
      
   That's always been how I prefer to use monitors - point them right at *my*   
   ears, and keep them close enough to where only minimal power is needed for   
   them to be effective...which is why I like the small ones and really have no   
   use for the monsters with the 15" speakers and more.   
      
   > No angling it off to one side, cranking it up, and then complaing she   
   > can't hear it.  Point it directly at HER head, then adjust it to whatever   
   > level she wants.   
      
   Besides, that's effectively making it part of the FOH system - even in a   
   similar power range, which is Silly.   
      
   > Don't point it off towards the back wall, or the drums, or ME .... then   
   > insist on cranking it up because " I can't hear it ".   
      
   Monitors work best when they're Personal...the idea is NOT to share them!   
      
   > Yes, imagine the rewards of actually supplying what the customer wants.   
      
   Any other way is counterproductive.   
      
   > She cares because her bar and ex muso friends tell her we're not loud   
   > enough for their low brow tastes.   Obviously she shares their preference   
   > for loud music.   
      
   Now all they have to do is learn to use an SPL meter. Then they can actually   
   Know the levels before deciding ;)   
      
   > Got a newly fried JBL apart on my bench right now thanks to  " I can't   
   > hear it " thinking.   
      
   I wouldn't fry equipment for anyone - neither they nor their Stupid comments   
   are worth it!!!   
      
   > I told her I'd try and fix it, or she can throw it away.  Haven't looked   
   > at it in about two weeks, just because of other more pressing issues.   
   > Eventually I guess we'll get it going again. Not a biggie, she has another   
   > of these she can toast on her path to learning how monitors work.   
      
   That's not learning, only ruining gear ;)   
   You'd have a better chance with 6th graders, because they'd at least be up   
   for learning ;)   
      
   > She'll learn to back of the volume, or she won't.   
      
   It's easy enough, just turn counterclockwise rather than clockwise ;)   
      
   > What's bizarre is I have several musician friends who think just like her,   
   > loud or nothing.   
      
   At that's probably all that's left of there hearing - Nothing...from being   
   too loud for too long!   
   But why be so loud, and Stupid alone?  So they try to get other FOOLS to   
   repeat history - nothing new under the sun.   
      
   > Of course, none of them are currently in working bands.   
      
   Maybe they can't even hear what they play anymore.   
      
   > Lots of talk about putting something together, bla bla.  They might.  Then   
   > they'll play a handfull of gigs, be crazy loud as before, lose all the   
   > repeat bookings, and be back where they are now, talking about putting a   
   > band together.   
      
   Or they'll play so badly, because they can't hear, that every new gig will   
   be their last. I know of a band like that. No one but drunks, and maybe even   
   deaf ones at that, will tolerate them. It's truly Tragic, but then Stupidity   
   always is!   
      
   > She knows that.   
      
   So then she therefore also knows that the proverbial ball is in her court   
   and that it's her move.   
      
   > We can lose any of our jobs at any time.  Go in, screw up bad enough, and   
   > it's over, contracts or not.   
      
   I'd think so. I recall even hearing about a big name band that made such a   
   train wreck of a concert that they weren't even paid for it, and when they   
   tried to take their employer to court to try to collect, after the evidence   
   was presented, the court sided with the employer finding them not liable for   
   payment ;)   
      
   > Management is complaining.  As are some of the audience.   
      
   So they find it too loud too?   
      
   > Wanna see something amazing ?   Tell a musician or a chick singer they are   
   > too loud.  Then, just stand back and watch the reaction.   
      
   They probably wouldn't understand what that means ;)   
      
   > That's what she's going thru now. It would be major entertainment if it   
   > wasn't such a serious thing.   
      
   I've found that such situations are far too Disgusting to be funny.   
   Kind of reminds me of some of the accounts of the details regarding plane   
   crashes - if it weren't for the tragedy, it might even be funny, in a Silly,   
   Stupid way.   
      
   > Well .....   yesterday didn't go too bad.  We don't play this weekend. I   
   > have some solo gigs next week, then the band is back at it on the weekend.   
   > We have two more gigs on this years deal at the SD.  If we get thru those   
   > without getting fired, then who knows.  It's all up to her maturity level.   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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