From: klb52@gmx.us   
      
   On 2016-05-08 21:27:08 -0500, JimD  said:   
      
   > On 2016-05-08 15:30:58 +0000, KLB said:   
   >   
   >> On 2016-05-08 10:12:51 -0500, KLB  said:   
   >>   
   >>> On 2016-05-08 09:49:05 -0500, JimD  said:   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>> You have to translate drummer speak.   
   >>>>> "Your guitar is too loud in my headphones" means   
   >>>>> "my drums are not loud enough."   
   >>>>> His drums sound muffled because he is hearing the "live" sound through   
   >>>>> the open air headphones, also means "my drums are not loud enough."   
   >>>>> Neil   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Yes. The problem is, tho, that by the time his drums are loud enough to   
   >>>> suit him, my ears hurt.  Not " gee, that's kinda annoying " hurt, they   
   >>>> PHYSICALLY hurt. I can hear and feel small muscles in my ears " popping   
   >>>> " as they try and limit the sound. After a very loud sound, once it   
   >>>> quits, I can hear my ear " releasing ". It's some muscle refex in   
   >>>> there. And after a few 10's of minutes of drums, my ear on whichever   
   >>>> side the drums are hurts, physically painfully hurts.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> We tried letting him use one of those Galaxy Audio Hot Spots as a   
   >>>> monitor. Head level, about 3 feet from him ...  I maxed out one side of   
   >>>> a PV 1600 watt power power amp into that.  Nope, not even close what   
   >>>> he's looking for.  To be fair, Hot Spot vocal monitors aren't made to   
   >>>> do bass. I knew that, but he basically doesn't believe me.  It   
   >>>> surprised me 800+ watts didn't fry the thing.  We only tried it for   
   >>>> about a minute. That is wasn't gonna work was obvious. So what would   
   >>>> work would be some big, 15 and a horn, and put that right head level,   
   >>>> close and pointed at him.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Problem is, and you all know, he'll just play louder then.  Then the   
   >>>> bleed from that monitor will completely wreck the stage levels.   
   >>>> Remember, we don't use any on stage amps. All we hear is the actual pa   
   >>>> mix, done by carefully placing the main cabs where we too can hear   
   >>>> them. Not out front so we're looking at the back of them, but about   
   >>>> half way back on the side of the stage and angled in. More like how   
   >>>> you'd set up Bose L1's.  Same principle, actually.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> This is an interesting topic. Years ago, we'd all just play as loud as   
   >>>> we could get our amps to go, and actually believed that was how it was   
   >>>> supposed to be done. What can I say ?  We were young and stupid.  Now   
   >>>> tho, we can't use the young part of that excuse. If we still want to   
   >>>> play like that, then " stupid " is the only part that still applies.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Almost.   There is a new aspect.   Now, it really seems to me that many   
   >>>> of my musican buddies are showing noticeable effects of hearing loss.   
   >>>> They make arguments about not being able to hear monitors and stuff.   
   >>>> Singer girl pointed out that when she started out, we didn't bother   
   >>>> with " monitors ". People played at, apparently much lower levels.  Two   
   >>>> points there. One, the amps were far smaller. 12 or 24 watts or on the   
   >>>> max side, 60-ish  watts ( for an old Twin ).  Bass amps were 50 watts.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Try that now and you're not even in the game volume wise. I know that,   
   >>>> I still have those old amps around to try.  Got a black face Bassman   
   >>>> sitting right across the room ( 50 watts on a good day ). There's a "   
   >>>> screamin' " loud 12 watt '69 Princeton at the end of the couch I'm   
   >>>> sitting on.  Black face Twin behind a couch in the living room. Could   
   >>>> we use those live now ?  Well, mic'd, maybe. But once the drums kick   
   >>>> in, forget hearing them.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> So why did they once work just fine ?   How about this, it was because   
   >>>> we all had better hearing then.   Yep, I suspect as people age, their   
   >>>> hearing goes away. And when that happens, they start turning things up.   
   >>>> Tv's, radios, and .... wait for it ....... guitar amps and monitors.  I   
   >>>> believe a lot of the issues I'm seeing are due to my aging musician   
   >>>> buddies ( and myself ) losing our hearing.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> We compensate by cranking the volume, buying bigger amps, cranking   
   >>>> more, and mostly ... complaining that the monitors aren't loud enough.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> ......   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Jim   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I may have mentioned this but I was in a band fairly recently that   
   >>>> played 50s-70s, for "animal" clubs Moose, Eagles, Elks etc and we had a   
   >>>> drummer who was amazingly talented and yet no volume control.  These   
   >>>> were older adults we were playing for and it was HUGE problem.  We were   
   >>>> at an Amer Legion and the first set I just stopped playing to see if he   
   >>>> would notice.  I was the only lead guitar... Not a bit.  At the break,   
   >>>> a patron came up and said to us "All I can hear is drums!"  Now you   
   >>>> might think, why didn't I say something myself.  Simple> he would go   
   >>>> ballistic anytime anyone suggested being quieter...  I told the leader   
   >>>> of the band that night that I was through - I told him I would finish   
   >>>> any jobs he needed me on but he needed to start looking.  The bass   
   >>>> player told him the same thing the next gig and the band is now   
   >>>> defunct.  I think it is such a shame that this tremendously talented   
   >>>> drummer killed a band out of his own ego...   
   >>>   
   >>>> Louise always disses tracks but when you play for adults, volume is a   
   >>>> real issue and tracks can be controlled.  I would NEVER choose a drum   
   >>>> track over a talented, aware, cooperative drummer but I would choose   
   >>>> one over that type of drummer every time.   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>> I probably should say this, but Jim, you may have to think hard about   
   >>> the drummer you are using.  Not trying to be a buttinsky but...   
   >>   
   >> I meant "shouldn't"   
   >   
   > ---   
   >   
   > I didn't even catch the typo.   
   >   
   > Drummers must have a tendency to get into their own world.   
   >   
   > In your situation, the drummer played along quite happy, completely   
   > unable to hear you, as. He didn't notice you'd stopped because, he   
   > wasn't listening to you anyway. Not a bit, not at all. In fact, even   
   > under normal conditions when you were playing, he still wasn't   
   > listening or he would have noticed you dropping out. He was " doing his   
   > thing " and ignoring most everything else.  Our drummer wants to do   
   > that.  Why ?  That's how he plays also, it seems.   So the whole tracks   
   > thing throws him, because to work with those he HAS to listen.  They   
   > won't follow him.   
   >   
   > Our guy's not LOUD as drummers go. It's that he's just too loud for him   
   > to hear any of the rest of us.  His playing drowns us ( the tracks and   
   > my instruments ) out to HIM ...  except my guitar, which he is hearing   
   > too much of.  Weird that.  So the issue is that he's constantly unhappy   
      
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