From: someone@anywheret.net   
      
   "JimD"  wrote in message news:2016112913433246619-email@nowherecom...   
      
   > 4 or 5, or sometimes 3 :-)   
      
   Good size...and 3 is nice.   
      
   > I'll look at those. Thanks.  What I need to hunt down is something on   
   > acoustic masking, as it appies to band situationsm and send that to the   
   > drummer.  People actually study this stuff, you know.  AM is the effect   
   > where one sound becomes completely " unhearable " in the presense of   
   > another much louder sound.   
      
   Acoustic masking? What kind and purpose? And what's AM got to do with it?   
      
   > In our case, it's why he can't hear his headphones ( 98 db max per spec   
   > sheet ) when he's playing his drums louder than that ... which he easily   
   > does live.   
      
   That's a pretty high level...perhaps IEMs might help...if they're   
   tolerable - I'm still waiting to try them to find out.   
      
   > There is a horrid solution that's been offered .... let him use a bass amp   
   > of his own, dedicated to him as a monitor. Then I'd route just the bass   
   > line from the backing tracks to that.  The theory is then he'd be able to   
   > hear the bass.  Not an amp the audience would be intended to hear, just a   
   > thing the drummer could hear onstage. Reason for a bass amp rather than a   
   > normal stage monitor is because a wedge that would produce the 100+ db   
   > bass level he wants would easily cost over a grand.   
      
   Why would anyone need that much power from a monitor?   
   Seems the fine art of TURNING DOWN should get Top Priority instead!   
      
   > Ok, lets take a step back and think that thru.   
      
   > He " can't hear " the tracks well enough to stay with them.   
   > We burnt up a set of my headphones at rehearsal.   
   > I won't be loaning anymore, so he bought his own.  They max out at 98 db.   
      
   He's gong to lose his hearing anyway with levels like that, assuming he   
   still has any remaining now, so why bother? Get something that flashes light   
   at the proper tempo.   
      
   > He can't hear them well enough live.   
      
   He's probably well on the way to Deaf already.   
      
   > Now he wants a bass amp as a monitor.   
      
   Yep, louder and louder and louder, until none of it matters anymore...how   
   Tragic.   
      
   > How loud would that need to be to be hearable ?   I'd say ove 98 db, since   
   > we know he can't hear the tracks at that level thru his phones.   
      
   He probably needs a hearing aid.   
      
   > And last saturday proved he can't hear well enough at the normal stage   
   > level, which was in the mid 90's at that job.   
      
   That figures. Hearing is what's absolutely necessary to appreciate   
   Music...so overcranking is just  plain STUPID!   
      
   > So now we're gonna add a second bass amp, crank it up to 100 plus db and   
   > sit it by the drummer ????  What's that gonna do to the stage level ?   
      
   A hearing aid would still probably be better.   
      
   Kind of reminds a drunk who pickles his liver with booze over so very many   
   years of heavy drinking, then is fortunate enough to get a liver transplant,   
   and then proceeds to pickle that one too.   
      
   > Does the idea of backing off a bit even ever cross these peoples mind ?   
      
   Got to show 'em how - because they're Too STUPID to figure it out   
   themselves!!!   
      
   > There's no way in the world I'm gonna accept a 100+ db stage INSTRUMENTAL   
   > level.  How loud would we need vocal monitors to be to hear the singing   
   > over that ?   Look up acoustical masking for the answer to that.  Short   
   > answer, I doubt it's even possible on a small stage.   
      
   Sounds like, in addition to Deafness of course, that would make for getting   
   more and more venues to stop booking bands for being too loud.   
      
   > We're to that point.   
      
   I wasn't joking at all...it's like responding to any other Danger, like   
   putting out a fire, except in this case it's extinguishing the Excessive dBs   
   before they extinguish the hearing!   
      
   > Gotta " feel " the music, ya know.   
      
   So boost the bass and keep it as much as possible in the quarter space,   
   that's what everyone feels anyway and  there are safe ways of doing it.   
      
   > Bad strategy.  Trying to be commercial without the best tools is a losers   
   > game.   
      
   Being CONFORMIST is the Losers game!   
   Because some Brain-Dead Zombie Robots want to eat Dung, it doesn't mean you   
   have to also you know...unless you actually Want the CRAP they're into!!!   
      
   > And you should, in a totally live setting.   
      
   And that's the kind of setting I'm into.   
      
   > Nope. I've worked with him with live bassplayers.  I've been onstage   
   > between him and the bass guy. I couldn't hear the bass, and I'm absolutely   
   > positive he couldn't either. And as proof of that I have recordings   
   > .........   
      
   Then it's most likely a hearing problem...as in Damaged hearing.   
      
   > No, they don't.  For probably the same reasons you have, fear of change,   
   > fear of the unknown.   
      
   Give it any kind of Euphemism you want, but it still comes down to it being   
   Fictitious, False, Fakery, Phony, and FRAUD - the very essence of being   
   PLASTIC - Nothing but a Cheap Illusion of 'perfection', a Meaningless   
   Pretense of something that's NOT REALLY THERE!!!   
      
   I fear change NOT for the Better, but for the WORSE!   
   And there's nothing unknown about that!   
   I know CRAP and PUKE when I see it, and want NO part of it!!!   
      
   > If you ever find yourself in a commercial, for real,  recording situation,   
   > you'll either learn to " work with a machine " or you'll never finish the   
   > recordings.   
      
   How so and what machine? Besides, Machines are one thing, but Machinations   
   are quite another!   
      
   > lose the drummer.   
      
   If he's lost his hearing, what other choice(s) are there?   
      
   > He's fine at rehearsals.  Even when we record, he's fine. It's only out at   
   > live shows that he loses his ability to keep time .... and control the   
   > volume. Maybe it's a nervous thing.   
      
   Then maybe it's not all that physically serious after all.   
      
   > I love those shows. And there sure are plenty of episodes where the "   
   > captain " thought he knew better than the instrumentation.  How did that   
   > turn out ?  Well, the show's name includes the words " air crash " ....   
   > :-)   
      
   Shows? What shows are they? Never heard of a show that has "air crash" in   
   its name, but I figured it had to be something like that.   
      
   > Yes. Live is when it all goes wrong. At rehearsals, we do fine.   
      
   If they're not into the Love Vibe, then they probably don't see much point   
   on getting on stage when all they'd really want to do is record and play   
   more or less privately. I understand Steely Dan was like that in the   
   beginning.   
      
   > Actually, without the tracks, the timing still went all over the place,   
   > it's just that there was no measuring stick to compare it to.  Now, really   
   > good dancers would have noticed right away. Live we speed up nearly   
   > constantly, and what choice is there but to follow.   
      
   Sounds like they're good at following the changes, same here, and with the   
   church band in particular, there's a lot of that.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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