XPost: soc.culture.usa, alt.fan.adolf-hitler, rec.arts.movies.current-films   
   XPost: rec.aviation.military   
   From: keithnospam@demon.co.uk   
      
   The Starmaker wrote:   
   > deemsbill@aol.com wrote:   
   >>   
   >> On May 11, 7:25 pm, "Keith Willshaw"  wrote:   
   >>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote:   
   >>>> On May 11, 6:51 pm, "Keith Willshaw"    
   >>>> wrote:   
   >>>>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote:   
   >>>>>> On May 11, 1:44 pm, "Keith Willshaw"    
   >>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Since 1776? Well under one million.   
   >>>   
   >>>>>>>> I don't understand...   
   >>>>>>>> there was a hundred million people in China in 1776, why   
   >>>>>>>> couldn't there be a hundred million people in America in 1776?   
   >>>   
   >>>>>>> Because China was a long established Agrarian society   
   >>>>>>> that had sophisticated farming techniques, had excellent   
   >>>>>>> metallurgical skills and a stable well ordered society.   
   >>>   
   >>>>>>> Pre Columbian North America was largely populated by   
   >>>>>>> nomadic hunter gatherers who were living in the neolithic   
   >>>>>>> had almost no domesticated animals.   
   >>>   
   >>>>>> Actually, most of them were farmers who supplemented their diet   
   >>>>>> with hunting/gathering/fishing.   
   >>>   
   >>>>> This was true of the mound building culture of the Mississippian   
   >>>>> period but for reasons that are still not clear that society seems   
   >>>>> to have collapsed in the mid 15th century. When Hernando de Soto   
   >>>>> explored   
   >>>>> the area in the 1540's he encountered some remnants of that   
   >>>>> society but for the most part the tribes he encountered were   
   >>>>> mainly hunter gatherers.   
   >>>   
   >>>>     De Soto described the riverbanks "teeming" with villages and   
   >>>> fields. When LaSalle came through a century later, it was   
   >>>> practically a wasteland.   
   >>>   
   >>>>> The collapse of the mound builders civilization and the Anasazi   
   >>>>> seems to coincide with the climate change event know as the little   
   >>>>> ice age. Whatever the cause the great city of Cahokia seems to   
   >>>>> have been abandoned around 1400.   
   >>>   
   >>>>      Probably imploded from environmental degradation,.....so much   
   >>>> for Indians being great stewards of nature.   
   >>>   
   >>>>> The diseases carried by De Soto's men seems to have accelerated   
   >>>>> the trend. By the time the first British/American settlers   
   >>>>> reached these areas the culture had all but disappeared. Only in   
   >>>>> the south west among the Hopi and Navajo did agriculture still   
   >>>>> form the main   
   >>>>> way of life.   
   >>>   
   >>>>    Sorry, but this is just wrong. All of the tribes initially   
   >>>> contacted in New England (mainly Algonquians) and farther south   
   >>>> along the coast were farmers. As were the Cherokee and Creek. The   
   >>>> Iroquois also farmed quite extensively. They also hunted, fished   
   >>>> and gathered, but maize and squash were large parts of their diet.   
   >>>> Some even farmed native wild rice.   
   >>>   
   >>>>   They mainly used slash and burn...farmed an area for a couple   
   >>>> years and then moved on to another. As their numbers grew, they   
   >>>> became more sedentary and farming became more important.   
   >>>   
   >>>>> The ancient center in Ohio that is called Fort Ancient had been   
   >>>>> abandoned by the time the first Europeans arrived and the area   
   >>>>> was inhabited by the Shawnee who were much less sedentary.   
   >>>   
   >>>>    But were still farmers. Farmers don't have to be sedentary.   
   >>>   
   >>>>> Another factor was the vicious wars of the 17th century fought   
   >>>>> between the Iriquois and Algonquian Indians in the region   
   >>>   
   >>>>> The notion that the Native Americans lived in some sort of mystic   
   >>>>> harmony is just new age twaddle. By 1670 the Iriquois had   
   >>>>> pushed the Algonquin out of much of Ohio and Michigan.   
   >>>   
   >>>>     True. The notion that North America was some kind of pristine   
   >>>> nature preserve where a few bands of hunter-gatherers roamed is   
   >>>> also wrong.   
   >>>   
   >>> A claim I have never made. It was a severaly stressed environment   
   >>> that had seen a major population collapse.   
   >>   
   >>     Never said you did. The main population collapse seems to have   
   >> been from epidemics introduced after 1492....up to 80% of the   
   >> pre-1492 population might have died. Cahokia is the only instance   
   >> I've read of where environmental degradation is considered a likely   
   >> cause.....of course it had the largest population by far.   
   >>   
   >>     The collapse of the other mound-builder societies didn't seem to   
   >> include large population losses.....the people just decentralized and   
   >> continued their lives as before. It was the waves of epidemics   
   >> starting at the turn of the 16th Century that seems to have   
   >> depopulated much of the continent.   
   >   
   > All I saw in the movies was cowboys killing indians...   
      
   Which almost never happened.   
      
   Cowboys were far too busy driving cattle from the grazing grounds   
   to the rail heads. There was far more conflict with miners   
   and farmers who wanted to fence off the land.   
      
   Keith   
      
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