5985b2e7   
   XPost: soc.culture.greek, soc.history.ancient, alt.pagan   
   XPost: alt.magick   
   From: SolomonW@citi.com   
      
   On Mon, 9 Jul 2012 03:21:07 -0700 (PDT), Yusuf B Gursey wrote:   
      
   > On Jul 9, 5:50 am, SolomonW  wrote:   
   >> On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 02:08:48 -0700 (PDT), Yusuf B Gursey wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> to it. I can take a Hebrew text and read it in either Modern Hebrew or   
   >>>>>>>> Ashkenazi pronunciation.   
   >>   
   >>>>>>> Since the vowels are not written you can pronounce them any way you   
   like.   
   >>>>>>> Even if they are written you can still ignore them as almost everyone   
   >>>>>>> does   
   >>>>>>> when they speak English.   
   >>   
   >>>>>> In Hebrew vowels are not ignored, if they put into the text, it is for a   
   >>>>>> reason.   
   >>   
   >>>>> We are talking about Biblical Hebrew here.   
   >>   
   >>>> Wrong see (b) above   
   >>   
   >>>>> It contains no vowel points.   
   >>   
   >>>> Biblical Hebrew can contain vowels. My text books used to use them.   
   >>   
   >>> the vowel points were added in the early Middle Ages, AFAIK 8th cent.   
   >>> CE or so. but we have an idea of earlier times from proper names in   
   >>> the LXX and other Greek sources. for earlier pronounciation we have   
   >>> clues from Canaanite words transcribed into cuneiform.   
   >>   
   >> If you follow the conversation, we are not talking here of biblical Hebrew.   
   >   
   > you said "*Biblical Hebrew* can contain vowels". it is properly called   
   > "Masoretic Hebrew".   
      
   The term "Masoretic Hebrew" is actually misname. Masoretic texts do contain   
   vowels, generally it also include Aramaic.   
      
   >   
   >> My point is that if today, someone puts vowels into Hebrew text, there is a   
   >   
   > the vowel points indicate the pronounciation of a tradition of   
   > recitation in the early Middle Ages,   
      
   No over time these have been added, this begins even before the period of   
   the second temple and continues to this day.   
      
   I will add too that more then vowels were added.   
      
   >  not today's pronounciation in   
   > Israel.   
      
   It does not matter the pronunciation as the written Hebrew text can be   
   adapted to different pronunciations. Because it is largely phonetic,   
   distinctive languages can be written in Hebrew.  I have seen English   
   written in Hebrew.   
      
      
   >> reason why they have done so, generally it is because a possible confusion   
   >> exists over the word so the vowels are added.   
   >   
   > not only does Masoretic Hebrew indicate vowels it gives the vowel   
   > quality in more detail than usual alphabetic scripts. it indicates   
   > *conditioned* changes of vowels, called allophones in linguistics.   
   > that is because when the vowel points were added Hebrew was nobody's   
   > native language, so extra detail was put in order to give a correct   
   > recitation. Arabic OTOH indicates vowels in a strictly *phonemic   
   > principle*, only vowel quality and length distinctions that are   
   > critical to differences in meaning are indicated. that is because the   
   > native speaker would know the finer points in recitation. moreover, if   
   > more detail had been put in Arabic voweling it would have, and will,   
   > create confusion between dialects.   
      
   Interesting. One comment I will make is that several people I know who know   
   Hebrew told me that it was much easier to learn Arabic because the   
   languages are fairly close.   
      
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