XPost: rec.arts.poems, soc.culture.cuba, alt.arts.poetry.comments   
   XPost: alt.religion.wicca   
   From: will_dockery@knology.net   
      
   "ggamble"  wrote   
   > On 10 Apr 2005 23:56:14 -0700, "Will Dockery"  wrote:   
   >   
   > Liar Will,   
   >   
   > is this self-referential jumble of typing anything close to what you   
   > consider to be a critique, you fucken illiterate moron?   
      
   Call it what you want, Gas-fly Gamble, but I nailed the poem.   
      
   > What the fuck is the matter with you?   
      
   I could ask *you* that, but the answer's obvious.   
      
   Can't stand Usenet, where you *can't* effectively moderate/censor, do you?   
      
   Look, Gas-fly, the piece is... back!   
      
   ----   
   From: Will Dockery   
   Subject: Re: Karla / Catholic   
   Date: 2005-04-10 23:56:23 PST   
      
   Karla wrote:   
   > Catholic   
   >   
   > The saints are dying now.  Their words   
   > hang upon the willows sleeping   
      
   A reference to the making of wands? Willow branches make the best wands   
   for magickal events, such as "bringing down the moon" to make   
   Moonwater.   
      
   > and their guitars are blowing in the wind.   
      
   Nice Bob Dylan Homage.   
      
   > The everything door swings   
   > on unoiled hinges.   
      
   Great line, wish I'd written it, reminds me of my grandfather's door in   
   his den that creeeeeeked rusty.   
      
   I *do* have a poem about that door, buried in the archives. An old   
   mahognany door, with a nice keyhole, though the key was long lost by   
   the 1960s when I'd hang out there and watch television Westerns with   
   him, on the carpet under the clouds of pipe smoke that hoovered.   
      
   I'll pull that poem out eventually, I appreciate the reminder. If   
   nothing else, this line makes the poem worth reading.   
      
   > The saints are dying now.   
      
   The Saints being in many cases transposed G-ds, not only greek, Roman,   
   Egyptian and Babylonian, but African and Irish as well, this gives me a   
   nice Wagerian image of Gotterdammerung, Ragnarok, that sort of event.   
      
   >  No longer   
   > more popular than God, Peter, Paul   
   > and Mary weep by the rivers   
   > of Babylon.  They tear their vestments,   
   > decline the host, saying   
      
   Beautiful line. Beautiful and filmic image.   
      
   > The saints are dying now.  The state   
   > buries them with black armbands and   
   > rubber soul,   
      
   First verse Dylan, now, of course, Beatles. Black may signify the   
   demise of vinyl, but that *may* be pushing it.   
      
   I like this first part best, I see some pretty good stuff about runes   
   and other stuff be that's the best part, for me, for now, above.   
      
   Now a post from the archives explaining more about how Gods became   
   Saints to Catholics:   
      
   ----   
   From: Nick O. Jones (Nick O. Jones)   
   Subject: Re: Questions on la Virgen del Cobre (long post)   
   View: Complete Thread (3 articles)   
   Newsgroups: soc.culture.cuba   
   Date: 1998/01/16   
      
   Larry, we may have dumped a lot more information (not to mention   
   having side-stepped your original question) regarding   
   Afro-Catholicism. I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but   
   here is a little clarification. By the way, I'm still curious about   
   the significance of the image of Och n you found. Perhaps you can tell   
   us a bit more about it.   
      
   The official name of the religion is Santer a, and is also known as   
   "La Regla Locum ."   
      
   One thing you should know is that the reason African deities are   
   associated with Catholic saints is due to the fact that during the   
   17th and 18th century, religions other than Catholic were forbidden.   
      
   The African slaves came up with an ingenious solution; Adopt the many   
   Catholic saints, but give them African gods counterparts. After being   
   taught by the Catholic church about the life of a particular saint,   
   they would then try to relate it with one of theirs. This way, they   
   could still worship their original gods while not breaking the law.   
      
   This is how the religion came to be known as "Santer a" (devotion to   
   saints.)   
      
   For example, Saint Barbara suffered at the hands of her own father for   
   her Catholic faith, even loosing her life rather than deny it. She is   
   depicted with a sword in her hand. Since she was one of the most   
   head-strong, agressive divinities, black slaves related her to Chang ,   
   who is the god of thunder and rain.   
      
   Each African deity takes on various attributes depending on which   
   African tribe the devout originated. Chang  can also be the god of   
   war, and of volcanos. He is generally attributed to fire.   
      
   It is interesting to note that Catholic saints have gender, since they   
   were human beings before being cannonized by the church, while Orishas   
   can be of either sex, or no sex at all. Chang  is generally accepted   
   as male, but associated with a female Catholic saint.   
      
   Complicating things further, is the fact Cribbean islands were   
   colonized by various countries, including France, England, etc. Each   
   of these would bring slaves from different parts of Africa, who   
   adopted different Catholic saints for each of their gods.   
      
      
   Maferef n gbogbo orisha!!! Aik  Ti   
   (Praised be all orishas!! Health to you)   
   ----   
      
   Hope this helps.   
      
   --   
   Shadowville/Netherlands project:   
   http://www.kannibaal.nl/shadowville.htm   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)