XPost: alt.agnosticism, alt.atheism, alt.society.liberalism   
   From: sniper@gotcha.com   
      
   wcb wrote:   
      
   > Gandalf Grey wrote:   
   >   
   >>That's a lie.  You explicitly stated originally that you had a simple   
   >>proof that no god can exist.   
   >   
   > Gandy, the only liar here is you.   
   >   
   > I debunk your lie again and again and you lie again   
   > to PROVE you are a liar.   
   >   
   > CAN GOD EXIST?  STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.   
   >   
   > 1.THE SELF DESTRUCTION OF THE CONCEPT OF   
   >   OMNIPOTENCE   
      
   Well, you've ranted and raved. You've complained   
   that the majority of posters who didn't jump up,   
   and shout "Barwell's right!", are either stupid,   
   or too lazy to give a shit. You've reposted this   
   crapola literally dozens upon dozens of times. I   
   think that the only thing left to do to join the   
   ranks of foaming at the mouth fundamentalists is   
   to start shouting at everybody in caps. ROTFLOL!   
      
   > A. Omnipotence is derived from Latin words   
   > omni - all, potent - power, potency.   
   >   
   > B. It thus means all potent, all powerful.   
   > Having all possible powers and abilities.   
   > It means god has all possible powers. Many   
   > theologians hasten to add that god is not   
   > omnipotent in regards to illogical or impossible   
   > things, he cannot make for example, a married   
   > bachelor.   
   >   
   > C. It also means lessor powers and entities have   
   > no possible way of affecting god, or in limiting   
   > good in any possible manner.   
   >   
   > D.  Except for such logical exceptions nothing   
   > can limited god, he is unlimited in ability and   
   > power.   
   >   
   > 2. GOD AND TIME   
   >   
   > A. Time exists   
   > B. But if god is to be omnipotent, time cannot   
   >    limit god in any way.   
   > C. Time is what gives us a past, present and   
   >    future. We cannot see the future, nor reach   
   >    into the future at will.   
   > D. If god is so limited, god is not omnipotent,   
   >    time, past and present limit god. Time is more   
   >    powerful than unlimited god.   
   > E. Thus past present and future, time, do not   
   >    and cannot limit god, for god there is no   
   >    past, present or future, all is now.   
   > F. God then can see all of creation at once,   
   >    directly, and can experience or interact   
   >    with any and all things at once.   
   > G. If time exists, god must have created it, and   
   >    he created our inability to see more than a   
   >    small part of time, now and not see future nor   
   >    past directly.   
   >   
   > 3. GOD, CREATION, AND TIME.   
   >   
   > A. God created all, this is a basic claim   
   >    of many religions, Judaism, Christianity,   
   >    Hinduism, Islam.  The Bible and Quran and   
   >    other sacred books are explicit about god's   
   >    creation of all.   
   > B. If all is now, and for God there is no past,   
   >    and no future in essence, all is for practical   
   >    purposes now, and all that was, is and shall   
   >    be are now, existant.   
   > C. Thus god created all now, at one time,   
   >    complete in all particulars to the last quark   
   >    and last fraction of a second in all   
   >    particulars and connections to all the rest of   
   >    the things in the Universe.   
   > D. A god contemplated his creation, he then had to   
   >    think about what he was to create in all   
   >    particulars. If he created a man named John   
   >    Smith born in 1950, he had contemplate all of   
   >    Smith's existence as he created it.  Each   
   >    atom, each act, each inclination of Smith had   
   >    to be created at once.   
   > E. And god had to contemplate creation of each   
   >    atom, each act, every second, every inclination   
   >    of Smiths life and existence.  He had to say   
   >    "Yes, I will create that" or "No, I will not   
   >    create that".   
   > F. He had to contemplate the last detail of   
   >    Smith's life, decide what he would specifically   
   >    create Smith as doing and create it all.   
   >    If Smith is evil and damned it is totally   
   >    God's doing. If good and saved, it is all   
   >    totally God's doing.   
   > G. Since all is at once, and all is created at   
   >    once, and god creates all, he must likewise   
   >    create at once, all sentient beings of his   
   >    universe, mortals, angels, demons, djinn.   
   > H. Thus because all must be at once because god   
   >    is not limited by time in any way and thus not   
   >    past and present, and since he creates all,   
   >    there can be no free will at all in this   
   >    Universe.   
   > I. All exists only because all was created by god   
   >    as it was created in all its particulars to the   
   >    smallest degree possible, with god's personal   
   >    knowledge and purpose and will.   
   >   
   > 4. OMNIGENESIS   
   >    This idea that god creates all now, totally,   
   >    in all physical particulars for all time to   
   >    the smallest details should have name as it is   
   >    a powerful concept that is destructive to so   
   >    many claims.  Omnigenesis, creation of all   
   >    would be an apt term.  If god is sovereign over   
   >    all time, and there is no past, no future, just   
   >    now, created in its totality by god, then   
   >    omnigenesis is the state of reality and no   
   >    free will can exist.  Omnigenesis is a state   
   >    of the universe that all else preceeds from.   
   >   
   > 5. GOD AND OMNIBENEVOLENCE.   
   >   
   > 1. God is said to be good, all good, supremely   
   >    good.  Often denoted by the word   
   >    omnibenevolent.   
   > 2. There is evil.   
   > 3. Evil comes in two type, natural evil,   
   >    drought, floods, hurricanes and moral evil,   
   >    evil deriving from acts of mankind, murder,   
   >    rape, lying as examples.   
   > 4. But if god made all man's acts to the last   
   >    detail including evil ones, then evil exists   
   >    only because god exists.   
   > 5. God also creates all natural evils that befall   
   >    man.   
   > 6. Since all evils are directly caused by god and   
   >    only god, as nobody has free will except god,   
   >    all evil is caused directly and only by god.   
   > 7. Therefore god is evil.   
   >   
   > 5. GOD AND OTHER CLAIMS ATTRIBUTES OF GOD   
   >    THAT FAIL HERE.   
   > 1. God is claimed to be loving, merciful,   
   >    and just.   
   > 2. But making a man evil and then condemning him   
   >    to hell for being something he has no choice in   
   >    being is unjust, unmerciful and not loving.   
   >   
   > 7. GOD'S FREE WILL   
   > A. If god creates all in one now, no real past   
   >    and present, all at once, he also creates in   
   >    this all at once creation, all interactions he   
   >    has with all aspects of creation. Every   
   >    action, every omniscient inspection of all of   
   >    creation as it is before him, any possible   
   >    interaction at all imaginable.   
   > B. This must mean God is frozen in time as he   
   >    makes all his interactions with the Universe   
   >    creates also at once.  All is including all   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)