From: oldwifetale@yahoo.com   
      
   On Monday, October 6, 2014 3:39:20 AM UTC-7, joshb wrote:   
   > Op 2014-10-05, oldwifetale schreef :   
   >    
   > > On Sunday, October 5, 2014 5:08:12 AM UTC-7, joshb wrote:   
   >    
   > >> Op 2014-10-03, oldwifetale schreef :   
   >    
   > >> > On Thursday, October 2, 2014 6:13:51 AM UTC-7, joshb wrote:   
   >    
   > >> >> Op 2014-10-02, yanowis@gmail.com schreef :   
   >    
   > [...]   
   >    
   > >> - America has misbehaved to the natives by lying about all the   
   >    
   > >>   treaties; even if you say there was violence back and forth   
   >    
   > >>   earlier, you had the treaties but you didn't keep them. Why   
   >    
   > >>   does everything in America have to be a lie, even the U.N.   
   >    
   > >>   is a lie, everything is a lie. Every war is a lie, every   
   >    
   > >>   president is a liar. That is not the way to go.   
   >    
   > >   
   >    
   > >  Thanks, i've gone cross-eyed now.   
   >    
   >    
   >    
   > :P   
      
      
   I feel as if you're trying to drown me in a tsunami of words.    
      
      
      
       
   > >                                          People often have a   
   >    
   > > national identity which unites them, based on certain core   
   >    
   > > principles - regardless of how corrupt their political leaders   
   >    
   > > are (which indicates a need for correction). This is true for   
   >    
   > > small or large nations, tribal nations, *any* nation. There is   
   >    
   > > such a thing as loyalty to your own people - without which you   
   >    
   > > cease to be a people. If an enemy nation is a threat to your   
   >    
   > > nation's core principles, and is at war with you, and you are   
   >    
   > > covertly in league with them, you are betraying and undermining   
   >    
   > > your own people, not just your corrupt politicians and leaders.   
   >    
   >    
   >    
   > First of all, I don't think it's for me to answer these issues.   
   >    
   > But as an excercize in thinking and debate is might be interesting   
   >    
   > to try anyway.   
   >    
   >    
   >    
   > Aren't you glossing over 2 things:   
      
   I'm not glossing over anything whatsoever.   
      
   >    
   > - 1. Native Indians are their own nations ?    
      
      
   No, i don't believe i glossed over that; in fact i alluded to that   
   specifically.   
      
      
      
   > What reason do they   
   >    
   >      have to regard themselves part of the United States of America.   
      
      
   Because Native Americans are United States citizens with the same right to   
   vote in elections (a right that was too long in coming), as well as being   
   members of their own Tribal nations. It's a dual citizenship, but not in the   
   same way that non-Native    
   people have dual citizenship - so as not to get the two situations confused.    
      
      
       
   >      The USA is at war with *them*, a war that the USA has sought,   
   >    
   >      despite the overtures toward peace and co-existence by the   
   >    
   >      tribes. It is hence a war of agression, of greed of Empire.   
      
      
   The USA - which is me as one of we the people of the United States - is not at   
   war with "them", and again you're forgetting that "they" are citizens of the   
   United States as well. If "they" were not citizens of the United States, why   
   would there be any    
   outrage if "they" aren't granted the same rights as any other United States   
   citizen?   
      
   This is a unique situation, and you have to look at all sides of it, not just   
   one side, to see the whole truth of a matter, or even the whole problem.    
      
      
       
   >      The peace and mutual loyalty between the USA and the tribes   
   >    
   >      (or at least many of them) was based on Treaties. These have   
   >    
   >      been violated by the USA, hence there is no peace, and there   
   >    
   >      is no bases for loyalty or demanding loyalty of the Native   
   >    
   >      people toward their unreasonable and inhumane enemy: USA.   
      
      
   Exactly. I am so disappointed in my government, and in the way my own people   
   (including myself) are constantly manipulated into believing lies that only   
   benefit the powers of Big Money. That's what all these world leaders are   
   fighting about, you know;    
   oil and currency. Honoring these treaties is a matter of Constitutional Law! I   
   will be saying that to my dying day, no doubt.    
      
   But again, there is dual citizenship involved. Although terms in various   
   treaties have been broken (and some, i believe, have been renegotiated), it   
   doesn't automatically imply that Native Americans have renounced their   
   citizenship in the United States,    
   nor any of the inherent rights of being a citizen of the United States.    
      
      
       
   >      Under your own argument you could say: the Native Tribes have   
   >    
   >      every reason to seek friendship with any nation, that is likewise   
   >    
   >      at war with the war-Empire that is the USA (although I do not   
   >    
   >      even think that the tribes are thinking that way, and they are   
   >    
   >      not behaving as a 5th column for a Russian invasion at all, and   
   >    
   >      I think they wouldn't stand for it if it was proposed to them by   
   >    
   >      Russia either ~ at least not in general; I mean who wants anyone   
   >    
   >      to invade them, be they Americans or Russians or whomever ? Then   
   >    
   >      again it's not for me to say, but this is my impression, and I   
   >    
   >      don't want to cast a shadow of distrust toward the tribes from   
   >    
   >      American cowards who fear a few people with different ideas then   
   >    
   >      their own).   
      
   Um, i don't know what you're saying here. Native American issues are unique,   
   distinct, incomparable to other people's issues in the United States. If   
   you're saying that broken promises automatically indicate that Native   
   Americans are plotting the    
   overthrow of the United States by aligning themselves with enemy nations, i'd   
   have to say you're wrong because that would be stupid, and Native Americans   
   aren't stupid. Also, i imagine the experience of having to "convert" to   
   foreign ideologies has    
   already left a bitter taste. It would almost be a form of insanity to   
   *knowingly* do that. However, if you are referring again to the 70s, there   
   were definite indications of a Communist... *presence*, let's say.    
      
   Also, there are many Native Americans who have *proudly* served in foreign   
   wars on behalf of the United States because they know that an attack on the   
   United States is an attack on their own people as well. Native Americans as   
   well as non-Native    
   Americans are equally traumatized when it turns out that wars weren't   
   justified or were based on lies told by people we are *all* supposed to be   
   able to trust. I really think this is partly why there *are* disconnects that   
   open the door to outside enemy    
   influence, by many groups, and sometimes even in the name of "patriotism".    
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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