From: unruh@invalid.ca   
      
   On 2012-05-22, Adam  wrote:   
   > Jim Beard wrote:   
   >> On 05/21/2012 11:36 AM, Adam wrote:   
   >> "Standard" Chinese has four tones, but if you go south there   
   >> are dialects that have 7, or I think even 9.   
   >   
   > I've heard there are dialects there that sound so different that   
   > spoken communication is impossible even though the written language   
   > is identical.  OTOH I could say that about English too -- there are   
   > some dialects that I have trouble understanding.   
   >   
   >> Ma1 ma chi2 ma3. Ma[3->2] man3. Ma1 ma ma4 ma3.   
   >   
   > If written, would each different word be a different character?   
   >   
   > [...]   
   >> When one is in the early stages of learning Chinese, this shift in   
   >> tone depending on syllable count from the end of the long series   
   >> presents serious computational problems. Eventually you learn   
   >> commonly used long sequences as set patterns, and maybe even gain   
   >> enough fluency to combine them without fouling up, but for a time it   
   >> is a frustration.   
   >   
   > I can see where that would eventually seem natural (like pronouncing   
   > all those English words ending in "-ough")... but I've started   
   > saying sentences without knowing how I'd end them.   
   >   
   >> In any case, the sentences in English go,   
   >>   
   >> Mama rides the horse. The horse is slow. Mama scolds the horse.   
   >   
   > I've heard that _written_ Chinese is a "grammarless tongue,"   
   > actually simple to learn once one gets used to ideographs instead of   
   > letters.  Only one form for each word, and additional words to   
   > indicate number, tense, etc.  If that sentence was describing   
   > something in the past, one would just add the word meaning "in the   
   > past" or "finished".  Is that correct?   
      
   But written chinese has essentially nothing to do with spoken. Thus   
   Cantonese and Mandarin-- different languages, even different number of   
   tomes-- same written language. I remember being in Beijing at a hotel,   
   and a couple of japanese businessmen were trying to talk to the hotel   
   front desk and getting nowhere. So they started writing Kanji, the   
   ideogrph based form of written Japanese, and suddenly communication was   
   possible.   
      
   And that sentence which is so so hard to non-chinese since all of the   
   sounds are the same to them (since they ignore the tones), uses totally   
   different characters in the written language. Ie, the aural pun looses   
   all meaning in written chinese (or english)   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)