From: david@edenroad.demon.co.uk   
      
   On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:04:39 -0800, Celestial_Sounds wrote:   
      
   > Of course the thought crosses my mind, what if OBEs are not real. When I   
   > sit down and look at the results at hand, there are many projectors   
   > producing no evidence, and a few producing solid evidence, such as   
   > Robert Monroe, Louis Ruiz, Albert Taylor, Sylvan Muldoon, Bruce Moen,   
   > Padre Pio, and I'm sure the list goes on.   
      
   It's not "solid evidence", and you're being a little naive to think so.   
      
   Or perhaps I'm being too cynical; but just because something is written in   
   a book, does not mean it's true.   
      
   Look at the Casteneda books, for example.   
      
   > Robert Monroe had several verified OBEs, confirming the dress of those   
   > present, who was there, their look, and in one experience even leaving a   
   > physical mark on a person present.   
      
   Or did he just make it up?   
   There is no way to tell.   
      
   > Louis Ruiz has had several verified OBEs, some involving several people   
   > in many different situations, i.e., occurring over a relatively   
   > substantial period of time, and validating a string of different   
   > actions.   
      
   Or did he just make it up?   
   There is no way to tell.   
      
   You may like and trust him, but thousands of people liked and trusted   
   Casteneda, and he lied to all of them.   
      
   Millions of people worship and love Sai Baba, and he cheats and molests   
   them.   
      
   > One of the verified OBEs involved me. It was enough for me to know   
   > something is going on.   
      
   You need to be more rigorous.  Do some objective experiments: if you're   
   confined to your room, put the equipment (a high shelf with playing cards   
   on it), in there.  It's not rocket science, do it today.   
      
   > I remember dreamily seeing and talking with him, wearing my unusual mode   
   > of astral dress that I created for myself. I mentioned nothing of the   
   > experience to him. How was he able to open the phone call with that he   
   > saw me OBE the night before, that we had a discussion but I looked   
   > dreamy, and also describe what I was wearing?   
      
   Too vague.  Get _him_ to do an objective experiment.   
      
   > Albert Taylor has had several verified OBEs, including people present,   
   > their mode of dress, and the layout of the area, both inside and   
   > outside. The person being visited in one of his verified experiences   
   > remembers seeing him in a dream, I think seeing him at the foot of her   
   > bed where he was standing. He got all the details of her physical   
   > environment right, and she had a dream of him coinciding with the visit.   
   > I have run across several other case histories, where a projector made   
   > it to a sleeping target, and the target remembers the projector in a   
   > dream. Louis had such an experience- most likely several, but I have   
   > read one.   
      
   Or did he just make it up?   
   There is no way to tell.   
      
   > Bruce Moen had several confirmed OBEs with a lady named in the book   
   > 'Rebecca', including total verification of what was said, done, etc.,   
   > involving several people, and several actions and activities. The   
   > experiences he's had of this nature cover the span of FOUR books.   
      
   Quite an incentive then, to make it up.   
      
      
   > Several witnesses have seen Padre Pio in two places at once, for   
   > instance praying in one place, and administering to the dying in   
   > another. Some say this is a strong OBE.   
      
   Some say it's a very dodgy anecdote.   
      
   > Now there are people who are NOT having solid experiences. Why? One   
   > thing I see about those who ARE having solid and undeniably verified   
   > out-of-body experiences are that they are OBSESSED with OBE. They MASTER   
   > it.   
      
   There's more to it than that.  Janice was a "master" by this   
   classification; but now believes thay are subjective experiences.   
      
   > Perhaps I will find that the EXPLANATION of 'out-of-body experience' is   
   > not ACCURATE to EXPLAIN what IS going on, but I am convinced that   
   > SOMETHING is going on, and I will find out what, and I will share it   
   > with everyone.   
      
   An admirable goal; but you will not achieve it unless you tighten up on   
   your methodology.   
      
   > All the evidence pointing TOWARDS the out-of-body experience being a   
   > reality is too great for me to turn my back on. The above shared is only   
   > a sampling. I suggest everyone PRACTICE and RESEARCH. It seems that for   
   > the time being I'll have to turn my back on something. I won't turn my   
   > back on the evidence for OBE, but on the words against it. The words are   
   > just that. The sciences on the brain and physiology are just that. At   
   > one point science thought that the atom was a solid, unbreakable,   
   > indivisible ball. Now we are going further and further into the minute   
   > components of the atom, into quantum particles and waves of information   
   > with quantum physics. I don't presume that the sciences that pick apart   
   > the brain can be ultimate authorities on what is possible, not any more   
   > than the sciences that once said atoms are solid unbreakable little   
   > balls.   
      
   Making mistakes is part of the scientific method - don't be ill-informed   
   enough to dismniss it because of that.   
      
   In a few hundred years science has taken us from zero to quantum   
   mechanics, from flat earth to General Relativity.   
      
   No significant progress has been made in the "mystical sciences" in that   
   time - we know no more about it now than the Egyptians did.   
      
   > As for all the things saying OBE is fake, like some scientists have   
   > found a part of the brain they can activate to cause what the   
   > experiencer reports as a matching many if not all characteristics of an   
   > OBE. Perhaps tapping or triggering certain areas of the brain can   
   > produce the perception of an OBE. Perhaps because the structure of the   
   > brain is generally the same for all of us, some quirk of the brain is   
   > causing these related 'hallucinatory' experiences across the human   
   > population, including throughout time, including reports of the tunnels,   
   > and the higher selves,   
      
   Probably.   
      
   > and the Akashic Records,   
      
   No such thing.   
      
   > and the layout of the afterlife, and the structure of the nonphysical   
   > forms/bodies, and the list goes on. Perhaps.   
      
   More to do with shared cultural experience.  Buddhists meet Buddha in   
   their NDE's, Christians meet Christ.  I have no idea whether atheists meet   
   a big bowl of promordial soup or not. ;-)   
      
   > I am not studied in brain physiology and stuff, so I can't strongly   
   > comment on that. And even if I WAS strongly versed on today's physical   
   > body sciences, are the present day sciences still calling an atom a   
   > solid tiny ball, but now in the realm of consciousness and being?   
      
   No, they're saying that all the mechanisms for the experiences of OBE's   
   are present in the brain, and we can prove it, so there's no reason to   
   invent all the wildly improbably nonsense that people do, in order to   
   explain their experiences.   
      
   > I can't just overlook the definite findings made by so many distant   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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