XPost: alt.religion.eckankar, alt.meditation.shabda   
   From: turner.michael@worldnet.att.net   
      
   "lackpurity"  wrote in message   
   news:1115441761.494581.189870@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...   
   >   
   > Michael Turner wrote:   
   >> Um, again, it is *exceptionally* rare for people to descend back to   
   >> animal form.   
   >>   
   >> The real reason masters in the past used that as a caution was to   
   > keep   
   >> people focused on the present, and appreciate the blessings of this   
   >> life here and now.  I know in my experience as a teacher, I have met   
   >> with numerous people who blame their current physical/lifestyle   
   >> condition or state of consciousness upon trauma from a past life.   
   > And   
   >> I tell them, "All that stuff doesn't matter.  You're just making   
   >> excuses.  The only thing that matters is: *Where is your attention   
   > here   
   >> and now*?  This is why Jesus didn't speak much of reincarnation, nor   
   >> did Kabir.  They knew it was just another trap to distract their   
   >> students.   
   >   
   > MM:   
   > Jesus said, "He who has ear to hear, let him hear, there will be   
   > wailing and gnashing of teeth."  Do humans gnash teeth?   
      
   MT:  Are you saying that "gnashing of teeth" refers to reversion to animal   
   incarnation?  That is too funny.  It is just a metaphorical reference to   
   extreme   
   unhappiness.  It has nothing to do with how animals chew their food.   
   Where do you come up with this stuff?   
      
   >Give me a   
   > break, Mr. Turner.  That is clearly a reference to chaurasi.   
      
   MT:  You may personally view it as a reference to chaurasi, but it is   
   hardly,   
   empirically clear.  That is just the spin you choose to put on it in order   
   to   
   sustain your own viewpoint and promote your agenda of gathering   
   disciples through fear.  This is not the way of Naam.   
      
   MM: >Also, the   
   > Bible says, "If a tree doesn't give forth good fruit, then it will be   
   > hewn down and cast into the fire."  This means we need to deserve to   
   > remain humans, or we will be demoted to animals.  Fire is reference to   
   > Hell, probably, also.   
      
   MT:  Ummmmmm, how does a tree being cast into the fire correlate with being   
   "demoted to animals"?  You are *really* reaching here.   
      
   MT:  My understanding of this is that the metaphorical tree is a symbol for   
   physical, emotional and mental mental habits that are non-productive.  The   
   term   
   "fruit" is a common metaphor for anything we produce - e.g., fruit of our   
   labor.   
   If the fruit of the tree our labor is non-productive or negative, then we   
   need to   
   eliminate that labor which is resulting in "poor fruit."   
      
      
   MM: > Kabir Sahib mentioned that a Queen was born as a bitch dog, and was   
   > wondering the streets looking for food, because she lived off the   
   > earnings of others.  Kabir Sahib mentioned a lot about Hell and   
   > Chaurasi.   
      
   MT:  I have likewise heard Kabir to refer to such things.  Please understand   
   that   
   spiritual teachers speak in accordance to their times and their   
   socio-cultural   
    and religious upbringing.  No one - no matter how enlightened - is free   
   from   
   such imprints, which inevitably color their thinking.  And no one is   
   infallible.   
   Plus, Kabir loved to push buttons.  Perhaps this queen had a bad attitude -   
   perhaps she thought she was all that - and Kabir decided to serve her a   
   lesson in humility (rather like the King who was forced to work in Kabir's   
   home for 14 years - while having kitchen slop dumped on him - until he   
   achieved true humility).  And thus, she got served.   
   >   
   >> That's the focus we should always have.  Is our attention in harmony   
   >> with Naam or not?  If it is, wonderful.  If not, just do simran (be   
   > it   
   >> Panch Naam, the traditional Radhasoami initiation, the Hu or the   
   > Lord's   
   >> Prayer), and gently and lovingly (like you would a beloved child)   
   > bring   
   >> your attention back into focus on the One.   
   >   
   > MM:   
   > If anyone wants to follow the path, I'd advise them to have a competent   
   > guide.  Without one, there are many dangers.  Women could be gang-raped   
   > in the Astral Plane.  Men could get into some serious difficulties   
   > there, also.   
      
   MT:  Gang rape?  Sometimes I really wonder what goes on in your   
   subconscious.   
   But it is true, without competent guidance it's easy to take a wrong turn in   
   one of the   
   inner worlds and wind up in a bad neighborhood - I call it "The Griswold   
   Effect".   
      
   MT:  But this is also a result of studying the psychic arts rather than real   
   spirituality.   
   If your goal is spelunking in the psychic dimensions of the dual worlds and   
   learning   
   fun new useless stuff (like, say, who God endorses for the Superbowl, or   
   what's on the   
   Loch Ness Monster's mind), then it is indeed good to have a some sort of a   
   competent   
   guide so you don't get mugged (though if the guide is real, and you are   
   truly listening to   
   him or her, you won't pay attention to entities claiming to be God and then   
   blowing   
   smoke about UFO's, Nessie and Superbowls).   
      
   MT:  Now, on the other hand, if your goal is real self-realization,   
   God-realization   
   and spiritual freedom, then it is much simpler.  So long as your are   
   initiated in the   
   Holy Spirit - and that may be as simple and conventional as a Christian   
   baptism -   
   and your heart is sincere, all you need to do is commune with the Word.  If   
   you sincerely   
   commune with the Word, and wholy and solely devote your attention to It and   
   God,   
   Jesus himself will guide you within all the way back home.   
      
   >   
   >> That, really, is the essence of Sant Mat and part of the core   
   >> foundation of the New Covenant embraced by myself and my satsangis.   
   >>   
   >> But seriously people, don't sweat coming back as a lower life form.   
   >> Unless you're among the most heinous of the heinous (or in one of   
   > your   
   >> very first post-animal human incarnations), it's not going to happen.   
   >> And even then, you will still likely return as a human being -   
   > albeit,   
   >> perhaps, a televangelist.  ;)   
   >>   
   >> Peace,   
   >>   
   >> Michael Turner   
   >   
   > MM:   
   > If we have a True Master, then we won't need to sweat it.  Otherwise,   
   > we bounce around like rubber balls, aimlessly.  There is a greater   
   > possiblity to bounce down (to chaurasi), then to bounce up (to   
   > God-Realization.)   
   >   
   > Michael Martin   
      
   MT:  Once again, Mr. Martin, you reveal a profound lack of personal   
   knowledge   
   and experience in this field, not to mention a failure to grasp the most   
   basic   
   spiritual logic of karma and reincarnation.  Souls go through myriad forms   
   of   
   life in order to learn from those experiences and unfold.  When we reach   
   the   
   human form we can spend dozens, even hundreds, of lifetimes growing and   
   unfolding.  Think for a moment on this current life (this is for all reading   
   this).   
   How much have you really learned?  This question becomes more poignant   
   as you get into your 40's.  How much do you really learn and evolve in any   
   given life?  Early on, habits and patterns set in and we tend to get set in   
   our   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)