XPost: alt.dreams.lucid, alt.dreams, alt.magick   
   From: askpermission@comcast.net   
      
   "104"  wrote in message   
   news:DpNJf.31800$Dn4.5311@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...   
   > Tom wrote:   
   >>   
   >> The OOB experience is a real experience, but it happens within the   
   >> internal model of the world we carry in our heads rather than in the   
   >> world upon which our model is largely based.   
   >   
   > And how did you determine this to be correct?   
      
   By paying attention to the discrepancies between physical world events and   
   the events of an OOB.  They are not completely congruent.  What, then, can   
   account for the differences?  In my estimation, the best theory for that is   
   the theory that OOB's are not actually travel in the physical world, but in   
   the world of one's mental model of the physical world.  I can find no   
   substantial evidence whatsoever that contradicts that theory.  Can you offer   
   me some?   
      
   > It's pretty easy to lose track of that, though,   
   >> if you aren't particularly interested in attending to the differences.   
   >   
   > Robert Bruce calls those differences "reality fluctuations". In his view   
   > when someone is OOBE they are in fact wandering our reality (he actually   
   > calls it the "Real Time Zone") but are invisible similar to ghosts. If   
   > people having OOBE's are only exploring some inner reality then how does   
   > one explain those people who have been able to describe what people around   
   > them were doing and saying, for instance?   
      
   I don't think Bruce has presented much in the way of replicable evidence for   
   this sort of anecdote.  Has he?   
      
   Throughout his explanation of astral travel, Bruce again and again says that   
   what is being travelled though is "mind stuff".  Even in OOB's he says it is   
   not physical travel but something that seems so close to it as to appear   
   indistinguishable.   
      
   From his "Treatise on Astral Projection":   
      
   "The astral is the closest dimension to the physical. It overlays and   
   permeates the world like a huge mind net, catching and holding all thought.   
   Its contents are created by the collective consciousness of the world mind.   
   It contains all the thoughts, memories, fantasies, and dreams of every   
   living thing in the world."   
      
   Jung's "collective unconscious", somewhat reworked.   
   "The astral dimension is composed of astral matter and is aptly described as   
   mind stuff. It is extremely sensitive to thought and can be moulded into any   
   shape or form. These creations can be so perfect as to be indistinguishable   
   from reality."   
      
   Here he agrees with me.  The events and locations experienced in astral   
   projection are created by the traveller from the contents of his or her own   
   mind.   
      
   "Technically, when you project into the physical world in real time as in an   
   OOBE, it is really into the boundary area of the buffer zone, between the   
   physical and astral dimensions. If the astral body contains enough etheric   
   matter it can exist only slightly out of phase from reality. This means the   
   projection is in real time and so close to the physical dimension as to be   
   indistinguishable from it."   
      
   Here also he agrees with me.  OOB travel is not actually travel in the   
   physical world, but in a very close analog to it.  I choose to call this   
   analog a "mental model".  He chooses to call it some sort of "dimension".   
   However, we both agree that OOB's are not physical phenomena but something   
   that seems very much like it, in our subjective experience.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)