01fefe36   
   From: david@edenroad.demon.co.uk   
      
   ClearTonal wrote:   
   > On Jun 2, 9:08 pm, David Mitchell  wrote:   
   >> ClearTonal wrote:   
   >>> On Jun 1, 2:11 am, David Mitchell  wrote:   
   >>>> ClearTonal wrote:   
   >>>>> On May 31, 6:49 pm, "Bernie Kovack"  wrote:   
   >>>>>> Is an "out of body" experience nothing more than a lucid dream, or does   
   it   
   >>>>>> involve "soul travel"?   
   >>>>>> If it's the latter, would it be possible for two people who are   
   propertly   
   >>>>>> trained to "meet up" and communicate?   
   >>>>>> URL's would be greatly appreciated. I spent a few hours googling and got   
   >>>>>> nowhere.   
   >>>>> ==================   
   >>>>> this is a very good question. The shamans of ancient Mexico also asked   
   >>>>> it, and were not satisfied with conjectural answers. The physical body   
   >>>>> seems to release something that has awareness, but what?   
   >>>>> They found the answer in states of dreaming. They discovered that an   
   >>>>> out-of-body experience is a dream state in which one's daily awareness   
   >>>>> is transferred to his or her dreaming body, which is a real entity and   
   >>>>> part of the total existence of every living being.   
   >>>>> I hope this helps.   
   >>>>> Warm regards   
   >>>>> ClearTonal   
   >>>> If I'm right, these unattributed quotes are from Carlos Castenada.   
   >>>> What you have to remember is that Casteneda made it all up.   
   >>>> Hope /this/ helps.   
   >>>> --   
   >>>> =======================================================================   
   >>>> = David    --- If you use Microsoft products, you will, inevitably, get   
   >>>> = Mitchell --- viruses, so please don't add me to your address book.   
   >>>> =======================================================================-   
   Hide quoted text -   
   >>>> - Show quoted text -   
   >>> yes these quotes are from CC. Did he?   
   >> Yes, he did.   
   >>   
   >>> Opinions vary,   
   >> Not much.  Take a look at the wikipedia article.   
   >>   
   >>  > and if you were   
   >>   
   >>> to try it out, you would find that the techniques do indeed work.   
   >> In what sense?  Have they been tested in any onjective way?  Or do they   
   >> work in the same way that many mystical techniques work, simply because   
   >> what they offer is completely subjective and can be explained by the   
   >> belief of the practitioner that they do?   
   >>   
   >>  > If   
   >>   
   >>> you do not make the attempt to verify, your opinion is only a second-   
   >>> hand agreement, and that is not worth much.   
   >> It seems to me, that the person making the claims should provide the   
   >> evidence.   
   >>   
   >> --   
   >> =======================================================================   
   >> = David    --- If you use Microsoft products, you will, inevitably, get   
   >> = Mitchell --- viruses, so please don't add me to your address book.   
   >> =======================================================================-   
   Hide quoted text -   
   >>   
   >> - Show quoted text -   
   >   
   > Hi David,   
   >   
   > lol dude, i'm here to testify to the efficacy of the techniques;   
   > unfortunately, there is no evidence of an objectiove nature, because   
   > the experience is internal. can you objectively witness inner silence   
   > and seeing? of course not, but you can experience these states.   
      
   Yes, and you can devise experiments to see which techniques work best   
   for inducing them.   
      
   Or you can just accept the unsupported word of a known fantasist.   
      
   > Fortunately, i'm not here to convince the skeptics. They will never   
   > attempt to verify, they prefer instead to read wikipedia...   
      
   How heinous, actually attempting to verify the facts.  Whatever next -   
   thinking for oneself?   
      
    > please try   
   > to get this, if you attempt to sincerely try, you are rewarded with   
   > results. if you don't, you can believe whatever you want...beliefs are   
   > like that. only experience counts. then you can see for yourself if   
   > it's real or not. you are free to believe whatever you want. i have   
   > experience and i can tell you it works, big time. if someone wants to   
   > know, fine, i'll offer my help. if someone wants to dis, also fine,   
   > i'm not here to convince you. i can't, because you won't be convinced;   
   > and it doesn't matter at all. but i can offer you the tools to see for   
   > yourself. peace to you. lets leave it at that, if you are unmoveable.   
   > anything else would be a waste of time for us both.   
      
   You are rather missing the point; and conflating two issues.   
   Firstly, I'm happy that these techniques work for you; but the fact that   
   they do does not vindicate Casteneda, as it has not been shown that   
   there is anything special about his techniques which make them work.   
      
   You therefore cannot use the fact that they work for you as proof that   
   anything else Casteneda says is true.   
      
   --   
   =======================================================================   
   = David    --- If you use Microsoft products, you will, inevitably, get   
   = Mitchell --- viruses, so please don't add me to your address book.   
   =======================================================================   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)