From: david@edenroad.demon.co.uk   
      
   Piccolo Pete wrote:   
   > "David Mitchell"  wrote in message   
   > news:g4a738$299$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...   
   >> Piccolo Pete wrote:   
   >>> "David Mitchell"  wrote in message   
   >>> news:g47l42$fjv$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...   
   >>>> Piccolo Pete wrote:   
   >>>>> "David Mitchell"  wrote in message   
   >>>>> news:g20daa$nd$1$830fa795@news.demon.co.uk...   
   >>>> And so on.  Surely you can see that investigating the phenomenon is much   
   >>>> more useful than simply accepting it at face value.   
   >>> Of course.  That is what this newsgroup is supposed to be about.  The   
   >>> problem is, in the past this newsgroup was attacked by some insane   
   >>> skeptics who were incredibly rude and abusive to the point it destroyed   
   >>> the core of the NG.  As I continue to read your posts I've come to the   
   >>> conclusion you do not fall into that category.  There are a lot of   
   >>> misconceptions on the subject of OOBE.  The very name is, in my opinion,   
   >>> incorrect and misleading. It is not "out of body" - it is a shift in   
   >>> consciousness.   
   >> Actually, from memory of the charter, the newsgroup was started to   
   >> "discuss all aspects of" the experience.  Not to investigate it in any   
   >> serious way, and that's certainly not what happened.   
   >   
   > Well, then, so what's your problem?  If this group wasn't started to   
   > investigate the phenomena, all of your questions are off topic.   
      
   Discussing "All aspects" of the phenomenon must, obviously, include   
   whether it's objectively real or not.   
      
   >   
   >>From my point of view, what happened was that any even semi-serious attempt   
   >> to add any rigour at all to the discussions was met with hostility.   
   >   
   > The hostility arose in response to abusive demands for proof that we could   
   > not supply because we are all basically self-taught, undiciplined explorers.   
      
   No, the hostility arose whenever even the idea of proof was mentioned.   
      
   As it did in your post.   
      
   >   
   >>>>> Since this newsgroup is dedicated to the study of the OOB phenomena.   
   >>>>> Any claims made here do not require evidence.  Even when evidence is   
   >>>>> given, it is usually and unnecessarily stomped all over by a skeptic.   
   >>>> Do you know what "Study" means?   
   >>> When this NG was in its hayday, the intent was to honestly relate   
   >>> experiences and suggest methods.  Readers compared notes with the   
   >>> writers. This is a form of study.   
   >> Without some means of sifting the wheat from the chaff, it was never going   
   >> to be very productive, and it wasn't.   
   >   
   > Why should that put such a twist in your panties to the point this newsgroup   
   > had to be destroyed?   
      
   what am I, some sort of criminal mastermind?  Organising tag-teams of   
   sceptics to pound your opposition into the ground.   
      
   Don't be ridiculous.   
      
    > There was a point in time, prior to the skeptic   
   > attacks, when this newsgroup was the most organized NG in its class.   
      
   And still, it achieved nothing of any objective value.   
      
   >   
   >> Or can you tell me of any significant breakthrough in understanding of the   
   >> experience which has been made during all the years this group has   
   >> existed?   
   >   
   > We were defining certain portions of the experience when the skeptic attacks   
   > began.  Such as "Skimming the surface", "Vibrations", "Making the shift",   
      
   These all sound like reasonably sensible attempts to begin categorising   
   the experience.   
      
   How were they "Attacked" such that you had to stop doing it?   
      
   > "Light portals" to change dimensional perception, discovering that music   
   > within these experiences may actually be a way to control various organs in   
   > our bodies, learning of certain archetypes such as fairies and demons that   
   > could indicate early detection of a disease.  Is that not enough?   
      
   Too much.  You're already starting to impute meaning to experiences in a   
   way which is snot supported by the evidence.  That's probably what got   
   your ass kicked.   
      
    > But the   
   > incessant and cruel bombing of this newsgroup by insane stone-brained   
      
   "Insane"?  You really do have an axe to grind don't you?   
      
   > skeptics destroyed all that fragile work just like Cortez invaded and   
   > destroyed the Aztec empire.   
      
   I think you need to step away from the keyboard and calm down for a while.   
      
    > You want.  You want.  You want - and you don't   
   > even give a damn about what you are given.  So everybody loses.   
      
   And rest.  Slow, deep, breaths.   
      
   > Questions are tolerated.  Abusive demands for proof are not.  There are   
   > times when a feather is a better tool than a hammer.   
      
   I rather suspect that if you look back at the NG postings from a few   
   years ago, the "believers" were much more abusive and hostile than the   
   sceptics.   
      
   Certainly we question, and sometimes we mock.  But, certainly I hope in   
   my case, only when it's warranted by stupidity.   
      
   It's not polite; but in this day and age, when all human knowledge is   
   available at the touch of a mouse, the level of basic ignorance shown by   
   some of the posters needs to be mocked.  It's a moral imperative.  ;-)   
      
   > Of course.  And when I was up in Ohio, I was keeping an eye open for a cheap   
   > used EEG machine so I could do just that.   
      
   Try EBay.   
      
    > That kind of equipment is   
   > essential for research on this subject.   
      
   Not intially.  Initially you have to show that there's something worth   
   investigating.   
      
    > It could have shown me information   
   > on both the vibrations and the music.  It may have even given me information   
   > on Light Portals.  A thermal imager might also be helpful.  But I don't have   
   > that kind of money.  So I must do this for my own personal understanding and   
   > share it with like minded individuals.  Insane stone-brained skeptics do not   
   > come close to being like minded with the real posters in this newsgroup.   
      
   Do you have "insane stone-brained skeptics" on one of your function keys   
   or something?   
      
   > You all claim you do what you do in the name of science - but it is a total   
   > farce.  Never once has any one of you offered up a physical lab with the   
   > proper equipment.   
      
    From my own point of view, I'm not interested in OBE's if they're   
   simply another purely subjective phenomenon.  They're fun, and I'd like   
   to have them more often; but that's all.  They're not going to advance   
   the cause of science in any real way.   
      
   However, if they were a means to access paranormal information in a   
   reliable way I'd be fascinated.   
      
   So the initial tests I've suggested to OBE capable posters are to see   
   whether this is the case.   
      
   So far, not one poster has plausibly claimed to be able to do something   
   as simple as read the values of a number of playing cards, face-up, out   
   of sight.   
      
   So I'm not interested.   
      
   >> PZ's demands were hardly ignorant   
   >   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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