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   alt.philosophy      Didn't Freud have sex with his mother?      170,335 messages   

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   Message 168,998 of 170,335   
   Ilya Shambat to All   
   Feminism and traditional roles   
   12 Feb 24 13:18:28   
   
   From: ibshambat@gmail.com   
      
   When I was 6, my mother tried to get me to wash the floor, to which I   
   responded, “We are not women.”   
      
   I have no idea how I got that sentiment. I certainly didn’t get it from her,   
   I don’t think I got it from my dad, and I know I didn’t make it up on my   
   own.    
      
   I am ashamed to have had that sentiment; but then I was 6. In my relationships   
   I did both a chunk of the traditionally male work and a chunk of the   
   traditionally woman work. In my relationships there were some situations in   
   which I was in charge; other    
   situations in which the woman was in charge; and other situations on equal   
   power. I have had woman bosses and translated woman poets. I have seen women   
   as being better than men since an early age. I am the last person that one   
   would expect to behave in a    
   sexist manner. If I can be vulnerable to this kind of tomfoolery, then who   
   isn’t?   
      
   What do I actually believe? I believe that both the misogyny and misandry are   
   for brats and idiots. Basically, these people don’t know how good they have   
   it. The misogynist is not with Andrea Dworkin. The misandrist is not with   
   Eminem or Mullah Omar.    
   Instead these people have partners who are much better people than they are   
   themselves, whom they then insist on treading like dirt. And that makes the   
   world a worse place for everyone and lets the worst people dominate the better   
   people, both men and    
   women.   
      
   Are either women or men to be hated? That is completely wrong. Both women and   
   men are people. People are beings capable of choice. Anything capable of   
   choice can be good or bad. Most people – women and men - are both.   
      
   So we have hostility between family-minded women and career-minded women. In   
   both situations there is potential for wrongdoing. A woman who has a family   
   with a man would be in a bad way if the man decides to act like a jerk. But   
   there are also going to    
   be jerks in the corporate world.    
      
   In my adult life I’ve done enough of cleaning, cooking, changing diapers and   
   any number of other things that are seen as being traditional women’s roles.   
   I’ve honored women’s authority in workplace and supported powerful women.   
   I took part in an    
   effort to fight domestic violence. I’ve had respectful, non-abusive   
   relationships with women close to me.  Whatever influence my statement came   
   from, is nowhere near me any longer. That is result of both me working on   
   myself and making sense of my    
   influences – also of input from other people, both men and women.   
      
   To men who have a negative view of women, consider women who are worthy of   
   your respect. Consider Queen Elizabeth I, Marie Medici, Joan of Arc, Rosa   
   Parks, Marie Curie, Amelia Earhardt, Sandy Lerner, Jane Fonda, Oprah Winfrey,   
   Margaret Thatcher, Hillary    
   Clinton, Julia Mancuso, Sarah Hughes, Penelope Cruze, Emily Dickinson, Dorothy   
   Parker. That some women are evil no more means that all women are evil than is   
   that some men are evil means that all men are evil. Anything capable of choice   
   can be good. That    
   is the case both with women and men.   
      
   Is wiping the floor a part of a traditional female role? Such things are   
   something that every couple should work out for itself. I did not feel   
   emasculated for doing traditionally female work., nor did I try to prevail on   
   women I’ve been with to do    
   such a thing. One of the women I’ve been with was a very serious Christian,   
   and she was willing to do such things as part of her understanding of what is   
   the traditional female role, without me demanding such things of her.   
      
   That something is part of a traditional gender role does not mean that it is   
   superior or inferior to that of the other traditional gender role. The   
   traditionally female tasks should be seen as being just as important and   
   valuable as the traditionally    
   male tasks. The task that women perform that men can’t perform – bringing   
   into the world new life – should be uniquely valued. A priest once said in a   
   sermon that men and women are “same in value, different in roles.” A   
   feminist would look at    
   this and say, “What a pig.” But you cannot portray as a pig someone who   
   sees women as better than men and actively seeks their benefit.   
      
   I want to see women having safe life inside the home and a fulfilling life   
   outside the home. As for division of labor, once again I believe that this   
   should be up to the couple. Some women want to do such tasks; others don’t.   
   Some men want to do such    
   tasks; others don’t.    
      
   All of the above should have a right to their choices. And the world should   
   have a right to benefit from people pursuing that right.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)   

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