From: x@x.org   
      
   On 3/11/25 02:35, D wrote:   
   >   
   >   
   > On Mon, 10 Mar 2025, oldernow wrote:   
   >   
   >> On 2025-03-10, D  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> So it is idle speculation or nonsense for me in the sense   
   >>> of never being able to be verified empirically, and that I   
   >>> refuse to participate in that type of idle speculation. But   
   >>> for someone who has a need of religion, but does not buy   
   >>> into the traditional way, I see great utility there!   
   >>   
   >> Empiricism: yet another religion.   
   >>   
   >> How so?   
   >>   
   >> Because adherent faith makes it seemingly real to its   
   >> adherents.   
   >   
   > Incorrect. I always challenge people who think empiricism is a religion   
   > to jump off a roof, since obviously there is no external reality or laws   
   > discovered by empirical investigations of the external world   
      
   So it is a profoundly held viewpoint of a thought system   
   called 'science' that 'faith is evil'?   
      
   > Of all the people I have met who do not believe in an external world, no   
   > one has ever taken the challenge, thereby proving that they do in fact,   
   > for all intents and purposes, act as if there is an external reality.   
   >   
   > Since their behaviour in every single way indicates there is an external   
   > reality, this is, in fact what they believe and should drop any other   
   > ideas.   
      
   You know, the opposite of 'faith' might be 'doubt'.   
      
   Thus isn't having too much 'faith' in empiricism   
   (doubt) a logical contradiction?   
      
   You also use the word 'external' 'world' or 'reality'   
   here.  Are you referring to the idea that 'mind'   
   might have an 'interior' or 'exterior' or location or   
   are you referring to the concept of a 'body'   
   without referring to 'mind'?   
      
   > Theres is then of course the ultimate argument that reality exists   
   > regardless of their attitude to it. They have no choice but to exist in   
   > external reality, short of suicide. So reality and empiricism does not   
   > imply belief. It just is. I can act freely in the external world,   
   > without any beliefs. That is why we know it is true.   
   >   
   > Then we can argue about the ultimate nature, but this, as material,   
   > beings, we will never know for sure.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)