From: nospam@example.net   
      
   On Tue, 11 Mar 2025, x wrote:   
      
   > On 3/11/25 02:35, D wrote:   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> On Mon, 10 Mar 2025, oldernow wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On 2025-03-10, D  wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> So it is idle speculation or nonsense for me in the sense   
   >>>> of never being able to be verified empirically, and that I   
   >>>> refuse to participate in that type of idle speculation. But   
   >>>> for someone who has a need of religion, but does not buy   
   >>>> into the traditional way, I see great utility there!   
   >>>   
   >>> Empiricism: yet another religion.   
   >>>   
   >>> How so?   
   >>>   
   >>> Because adherent faith makes it seemingly real to its   
   >>> adherents.   
   >>   
   >> Incorrect. I always challenge people who think empiricism is a religion to   
   >> jump off a roof, since obviously there is no external reality or laws   
   >> discovered by empirical investigations of the external world   
   >   
   > So it is a profoundly held viewpoint of a thought system   
   > called 'science' that 'faith is evil'?   
      
   Science is a method.   
      
   >> Of all the people I have met who do not believe in an external world, no   
   >> one has ever taken the challenge, thereby proving that they do in fact, for   
   >> all intents and purposes, act as if there is an external reality.   
   >>   
   >> Since their behaviour in every single way indicates there is an external   
   >> reality, this is, in fact what they believe and should drop any other   
   >> ideas.   
   >   
   > You know, the opposite of 'faith' might be 'doubt'.   
   >   
   > Thus isn't having too much 'faith' in empiricism   
   > (doubt) a logical contradiction?   
      
   There is nothing to have faith in. The world is a fact, it happens to you   
   regardless of if you want it to or not. Therefore the only reason we have   
   to doubt reality is if someone empirically proves that reality is "fake".   
      
   If someone does that, I'll change my mind. So far, in the history of our   
   civilization, no one has ever managed to disprove or falsify the world.   
      
   Therefore the world exists 100%. However! And this is very important. If   
   someone does that, I will revise my mental model, and happily acknowledge   
   that the world was an illusion.   
      
   The burden of proof here is with the person making a claim, that the space   
   you move through does not exist.   
      
   > You also use the word 'external' 'world' or 'reality'   
   > here.  Are you referring to the idea that 'mind'   
   > might have an 'interior' or 'exterior' or location or   
   > are you referring to the concept of a 'body'   
   > without referring to 'mind'?   
      
   I'm referring to all that exists outside of space/time as nonsense which   
   we can disregard, and where we cannot assign any truth value by the very   
   nature of us, living inside the world. God, unicorns, parallell universes,   
   all can be safely disregarded as fiction.   
      
   >> Theres is then of course the ultimate argument that reality exists   
   >> regardless of their attitude to it. They have no choice but to exist in   
   >> external reality, short of suicide. So reality and empiricism does not   
   >> imply belief. It just is. I can act freely in the external world, without   
   >> any beliefs. That is why we know it is true.   
   >>   
   >> Then we can argue about the ultimate nature, but this, as material, beings,   
   >> we will never know for sure.   
   >   
   >   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)