From: theirony2013@gmail.com   
      
   On 2025-12-31 13:46, Steven Douglas wrote:   
   >   
   > I'm not claiming that the following is proof of Jesus,   
   > but I am claiming that it is some very good evidence   
   > of the existence of Jesus.   
   >   
   > There are many references to the coming Jesus in the   
   > Old Testament, especially in the Book of Isaiah. Here   
   > are a few examples:   
   >   
   > Isaiah 7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you   
   > a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,   
   > and will call him Immanuel [God with us]".   
   >   
   > Isaiah 9:6: "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son   
   > is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder.   
   > And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty   
   > God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."   
   >   
   > Isaiah 53:5: "But He was pierced for our transgressions,   
   > He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastisement for   
   > our peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed."   
   >   
   > There are other examples in other books of the Old Testament,   
   > but this one is particularly noteworthy:   
   >   
   > Proverbs 30:4: "Who has ascended into heaven and descended?   
   > Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the   
   > waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of   
   > the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?   
   > Surely you know!"   
   >   
   > The following is from Moses, as he told the people that   
   > there would be another prophet after him:   
   >   
   > Deuteronomy 18:15: "The Lord your God will raise up for   
   > you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers —   
   > it is to Him you shall listen."   
   >   
   > So those are just a few examples of the many references to   
   > Jesus that appear in the Old Testament. During the time that   
   > Jesus lived, and while he never left the Holy Land during   
   > His three-year ministry, Jesus knew that the Gospel would   
   > be preached throughout the world as the End Times approached   
   > (as He claimed in Matthew 24:14),   
   >   
   > How could He have known that His ministry (conducted entirely   
   > in one tiny part of the world) would become known throughout   
   > the world -- unless He really is who He said he is?   
   >   
   > After the three-year ministry of Jesus was concluded, much   
   > was written about Jesus in the ensuing years -- and those   
   > writings are not confined to the Gospel accounts. There   
   > are several high-profile secular historians who wrote about   
   > Jesus. In doing so, they confirmed that Jesus was a real   
   > person and a historical figure. Here are some examples:   
   >   
   > Tacitus, a first century Roman politician and historian   
   > who was not friendly to Christians or Christianity. In   
   > his writings titled "Annals", he wrote that Jesus was   
   > executed by Pontius Pilate. Why would a Roman politician   
   > and historian waste time writing about a supposed "myth"   
   > (unless Jesus was real), when Rome was concerned about   
   > the growing popularity of Christianity and wanted to   
   > crush it?   
   >   
   > Pliny the Younger, a first century Roman governor (in   
   > what is today northern Turkey), who wrote to Emperor   
   > Trajan asking how he should deal with the growing number   
   > of Christians. He stated his concern that they worshipped   
   > "Christ as a god." Obviously something real was happening,   
   > not just some random "myth".   
   >   
   > Suetonius, a first century Roman biographer who was also   
   > not a friend of Christianity. He wrote about disturbances   
   > in Rome among Jews who were divided over Jesus. The early   
   > Christians were, of course, Jews -- as was Jesus. Suetonius   
   > wrote that these disturbances were caused by "Chrestus"   
   > (meaning Christ).   
   >   
   > And probably the best known of the secular sources who   
   > documented the existence of Jesus is Flavius Josephus, a   
   > first century Jewish historian who wrote about Jesus in   
   > "Antiquities of the Jews". There are claims that some of   
   > his writing may have been tampered with -- but what is   
   > undisputed is that he DID write about Jesus as a historical   
   > figure.   
   >   
   > There are other examples of secular historians who wrote   
   > about Jesus, but I'll stop here for now to keep this from   
   > getting too long. But anyone who cares to really study this   
   > topic  will soon realize that there is enough evidence of   
   > the existence of Jesus from secular sources (in addition   
   > to the Gospels themselves) that make it difficult to   
   > believe that Jesus was merely a "myth".   
      
      
      
      
   1. Old Testament “prophecies”   
        - Isaiah 7:14 (“virgin will conceive”) uses   
          Hebrew word *almah*, meaning “young woman,”   
          not necessarily “virgin.”   
        - Isaiah 53 may refer to Israel collectively, not a single   
          messianic figure.   
        - Many passages are interpreted *after the fact* to match   
          Jesus’ life.   
      
   2. Jesus’ knowledge of worldwide ministry   
        - Claims in Matthew 24:14 are faith-based, not independently   
          verifiable.   
        - Statements could have been written after Christianity spread.   
      
   3. Secular historical evidence   
        - Tacitus (~116 AD) mentions Christ, but relies on hearsay;   
          does not confirm Gospel details.   
        - Pliny the Younger notes Christians worship Christ, confirming   
          Christians exist, not events in Jesus’ life.   
        - Suetonius’ reference to “Chrestus” is vague and may not refer   
          to Jesus.   
        - Josephus’ passages about Jesus (Testimonium Flavianum) are   
          disputed and likely partially altered by later Christian scribes.   
      
   4. Overall assessment   
        - Most secular sources confirm **Christianity existed**, not that   
          Gospel accounts are historically accurate.   
        - Historical evidence for Jesus is limited and indirect; miracles   
          and prophecies remain faith claims.   
        - Retroactive interpretation of Old Testament texts is common.   
      
   Conclusion:   
   - There is no conclusive historical proof that Jesus performed the   
      deeds described in the Gospels.   
   - Claims based on prophecy or limited secular references support   
      belief but are not definitive historical evidence.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)