From: theirony2013@gmail.com   
      
   On 2025-12-31 16:00, Steven Douglas wrote:   
   >   
   > Mike  posted:   
   >> On 2025-12-31 13:46, Steven Douglas wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>> I'm not claiming that the following is proof of Jesus,   
   >>> but I am claiming that it is some very good evidence   
   >>> of the existence of Jesus.   
   >>>   
   >>> There are many references to the coming Jesus in the   
   >>> Old Testament, especially in the Book of Isaiah. Here   
   >>> are a few examples:   
   >>>   
   >>> Isaiah 7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you   
   >>> a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,   
   >>> and will call him Immanuel [God with us]".   
   >>>   
   >>> Isaiah 9:6: "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son   
   >>> is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder.   
   >>> And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty   
   >>> God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."   
   >>>   
   >>> Isaiah 53:5: "But He was pierced for our transgressions,   
   >>> He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastisement for   
   >>> our peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed."   
   >>>   
   >>> There are other examples in other books of the Old Testament,   
   >>> but this one is particularly noteworthy:   
   >>>   
   >>> Proverbs 30:4: "Who has ascended into heaven and descended?   
   >>> Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the   
   >>> waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of   
   >>> the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?   
   >>> Surely you know!"   
   >>>   
   >>> The following is from Moses, as he told the people that   
   >>> there would be another prophet after him:   
   >>>   
   >>> Deuteronomy 18:15: "The Lord your God will raise up for   
   >>> you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers —   
   >>> it is to Him you shall listen."   
   >>>   
   >>> So those are just a few examples of the many references to   
   >>> Jesus that appear in the Old Testament. During the time that   
   >>> Jesus lived, and while he never left the Holy Land during   
   >>> His three-year ministry, Jesus knew that the Gospel would   
   >>> be preached throughout the world as the End Times approached   
   >>> (as He claimed in Matthew 24:14),   
   >>>   
   >>> How could He have known that His ministry (conducted entirely   
   >>> in one tiny part of the world) would become known throughout   
   >>> the world -- unless He really is who He said he is?   
   >>>   
   >>> After the three-year ministry of Jesus was concluded, much   
   >>> was written about Jesus in the ensuing years -- and those   
   >>> writings are not confined to the Gospel accounts. There   
   >>> are several high-profile secular historians who wrote about   
   >>> Jesus. In doing so, they confirmed that Jesus was a real   
   >>> person and a historical figure. Here are some examples:   
   >>>   
   >>> Tacitus, a first century Roman politician and historian   
   >>> who was not friendly to Christians or Christianity. In   
   >>> his writings titled "Annals", he wrote that Jesus was   
   >>> executed by Pontius Pilate. Why would a Roman politician   
   >>> and historian waste time writing about a supposed "myth"   
   >>> (unless Jesus was real), when Rome was concerned about   
   >>> the growing popularity of Christianity and wanted to   
   >>> crush it?   
   >>>   
   >>> Pliny the Younger, a first century Roman governor (in   
   >>> what is today northern Turkey), who wrote to Emperor   
   >>> Trajan asking how he should deal with the growing number   
   >>> of Christians. He stated his concern that they worshipped   
   >>> "Christ as a god." Obviously something real was happening,   
   >>> not just some random "myth".   
   >>>   
   >>> Suetonius, a first century Roman biographer who was also   
   >>> not a friend of Christianity. He wrote about disturbances   
   >>> in Rome among Jews who were divided over Jesus. The early   
   >>> Christians were, of course, Jews -- as was Jesus. Suetonius   
   >>> wrote that these disturbances were caused by "Chrestus"   
   >>> (meaning Christ).   
   >>>   
   >>> And probably the best known of the secular sources who   
   >>> documented the existence of Jesus is Flavius Josephus, a   
   >>> first century Jewish historian who wrote about Jesus in   
   >>> "Antiquities of the Jews". There are claims that some of   
   >>> his writing may have been tampered with -- but what is   
   >>> undisputed is that he DID write about Jesus as a historical   
   >>> figure.   
   >>>   
   >>> There are other examples of secular historians who wrote   
   >>> about Jesus, but I'll stop here for now to keep this from   
   >>> getting too long. But anyone who cares to really study this   
   >>> topic  will soon realize that there is enough evidence of   
   >>> the existence of Jesus from secular sources (in addition   
   >>> to the Gospels themselves) that make it difficult to   
   >>> believe that Jesus was merely a "myth".   
   >>   
   >>    
   >>   
   >> 1. Old Testament “prophecies”   
   >>       - Isaiah 7:14 (“virgin will conceive”) uses   
   >>         Hebrew word *almah*, meaning “young woman,”   
   >>         not necessarily “virgin.”   
   >   
   > The word "almah" appears elsewhere in the Old Testament in   
   > the context of virginity. But nevertheless, however the word   
   > is translated in Isaiah 7:14, what remains is that a young   
   > woman will conceive and give birth to a son who will be called   
   > Immanuel (God with us).   
   >>   
   >>       - Isaiah 53 may refer to Israel collectively, not a single   
   >>         messianic figure.   
   >   
   > He was pierced for our transgressions, along with all of   
   > us being healed by his wounds. It's clearly referring to   
   > the crucifixion of Jesus.   
   >>   
   >>       - Many passages are interpreted *after the fact* to match   
   >>         Jesus’ life.   
   >   
   > Give some examples.   
   >>   
   >> 2. Jesus’ knowledge of worldwide ministry   
   >>       - Claims in Matthew 24:14 are faith-based, not independently   
   >>         verifiable.   
   >>       - Statements could have been written after Christianity spread.   
   >   
   > Sheesh, the Gospels were not preached worldwide when the   
   > earliest transcripts of Matthew 24 were written. I am   
   > constantly amazed at the lengths people (and dumb AI   
   > things) will go to try to deny the obvious.   
   >>   
   >> 3. Secular historical evidence   
   >>       - Tacitus (~116 AD) mentions Christ,   
   >   
   > Yes, he did. That was my point.   
   >>   
   >> but relies on hearsay;   
   >   
   > So what? He was not a friend of Christianity, so would   
   > he have put his reputation on the line for a "myth", or   
   > would he have been fairly certain of the source of his   
   > information before writing about Jesus?   
   >>   
   >>         does not confirm Gospel details.   
   >   
   > He did confirm that Jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate.   
   >>   
   >>       - Pliny the Younger notes Christians worship Christ, confirming   
   >>         Christians exist, not events in Jesus’ life.   
   >   
   > Ah, is this where the "myth" thing comes in? Because of   
   > course many people would worship a "myth" and become   
      
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